Discussion with Bose Product Specialist

[ACsGreens]

This is not a direct shot as Bose, I am simply seeking clarification on a product I was searching earlier. Just want others thoughts on this conversation and their claims about a lack of measurement standard.
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I am looking at the 191 in-wall speaker and the website says it is "full range." Without a woofer or tweeter, how can this play at "full range?"
Bose Guy: Most stereo speakers are built to offer full range sound, how would these be used>

You: Most are, but most do not have 2.5' drivers. They would be used for music/tv. What is the frequency range and the inpedence?

Bose Guy: We do not publish specifications like frequency response for any of our products, information like that tends to be unreliable. We offer a 30-day risk-free trial so you can use our products in your environment and with your media. By music and TV do you mean for surround sound?

You: I am confused. Most, if not all major speaker manufacturers offer frequency range, which is not debatable/unreliable, rather a scientific measurement to look at the performance opportunity of a speaker.

Bose Guy: I'll be right with you.

Bose Guy: Correct and as their is no standard of measurement, companies are free to list what they choose. All speakers on the market offer ranges well outside what any human can hear, leaving the statistic itself as not a great tool for comparison, we recommend listening to them to see for yourself. Are you trying to setup a surround sound system
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Once again, this was my conversation, not AH's.

 

[markw]

Tilting at windmills, eh?

As we here already know, Bose customers don't look at sound as their primary reason for buying Bose. They have other priorities, such as invisibility and pride of ownership, both of which Bose delivers to their target market.

As for one being "in the business" you should have already been aware of this and simply provided them with a cost-effective alternative that would suit their needs and your standards.

Here's the blurb on the 191's.

Would I be happy with this product? No, but I (and most of us here) have different standards as to what we expect from our sound systems. Keep in mind that many Bose customers are very satisfied and a lot of Bose marketing is done by word of mouth.

Now, rather than make the client sound like an idiot for buying them, perhaps you could have suggested a reasonably priced subwoofer with a fairly high crossover to fill in the bottom end. Odds are that, for most muggles, this would solve a majority of their complaints.

 

[Steve81]

Bose Guy: We do not publish specifications like frequency response for any of our products, information like that tends to be unreliable.

To an extent, he's not entirely mistaken. Few are giving complete enough measurements/specifications to be of any use. I mean, if a manufacturer rates a speaker as 8 ohm nominal, but in reality it gets measured to dip into the 2 ohm range, how reliable is that really? If Def Tech rates a subwoofer's FR down to 10Hz, how useful is that to you? Few companies give a half decent picture of these specifications ala Ascend which give you anechoic FR graphs and impedance plots.

 

[ACsGreens]

As for one being "in the business" you should have already been aware of this and simply provided them with a cost-effective alternative that would suit their needs and your standards. .

Mark- I certainly did that. I was not looking to pick and argument with the guy (who the h#!! am I) but was really looking at #'s and explenations beyond my previous knowledge.

 

[ACsGreens]

To an extent, he's not entirely mistaken. Few are giving complete enough measurements/specifications to be of any use. I mean, if a manufacturer rates a speaker as 8 ohm nominal, but in reality it gets measured to dip into the 2 ohm range, how reliable is that really? If Def Tech rates a subwoofer's FR down to 10Hz, how useful is that to you? Few companies give a half decent picture of these specifications ala Ascend which give you anechoic FR graphs and impedance plots.

Note- Not trying to say that he was wrong, and not saying that I am ever correct (ask my wife ) That being said, I wish they would publish something, but I guess they have their reasons for not doing so. Maybe I should have just left if alone.

 

[ACsGreens]

Now, rather than make the client sound like an idiot for buying them, perhaps you could have suggested a reasonably priced subwoofer with a fairly high crossover to fill in the bottom end. Odds are that, for most muggles, this would solve a majority of their complaints.

I certainly did not make anyone feel like an idiot, but thanks for the implication. As for the "muggle" remark, thanks..., needed a laugh.

 

[zieglj01]

This is not a direct shot as Bose, I am simply seeking clarification on a product I was searching earlier. Just want others thoughts on this conversation and their claims about a lack of measurement standard.

Bose is a waste of time for info >> this has been talked about,
over and over with other forums like AVS. Also, their employees
are all trained to give certain answers. Somehow, their marketing
is still working, even with some experienced forum members, if it
at least, makes them call and want to talk about their product.

They do publish specs for their pro stuff. They do have a different
approach for the consumer market. They have their niche, and they
are making a lot of money from it.

 

[jm78]

I once told a coworker that Bose sucks. He looked at me in disbelief. I just let him continue believing Bose makes the best sounding products.

 

[Steve81]

That being said, I wish they would publish something, but I guess they have their reasons for not doing so.

They absolutely have their reasoning.

If you're a big cynic, you could say they want to hide the fact that they're building an inferior product. Personally, I'm not sure how you would hide it. It isn't as if people can't demo Bose products or inspect their build quality and compare them to other items in store. It shouldn't take long to realize these speakers have a lot more in common with a cheap boombox than they do with the higher end speakers in a Best Buy's Magnolia section.

Ultimately Bose is selling reasonably complete systems meant to offer "good enough" sound to regular Joes and Janes, and at least in theory, they utilize a few tricks of psycho-acoustics to reach that goal. Offering specifications is at best pointless, and at worst counterproductive to this goal. I mean...

1. Most people don't have a clue of what frequency response is or how to interpret it.

2. If you're buying one of their systems, what does it matter what the FR of the cubes or the bass module is? They're all interconnected, so you don't have to futz with things like crossovers, and with respect to things like the low end, do we really need an FR graph to tell us Bose doesn't dig as deep a Seaton Submersive?

3. Their psycho-acoustic research has (at least in theory) led them to believe there are areas they can cut corners and make adjustments and still achieve "good sound" to the ears of most people. They aren't aiming for a flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz in the first place, so there isn't a lot of point in trying to compare themselves to products that do on the basis of specifications. They suppose (quite rightly IMO) that the only arbiter of quality that matters is what the listener thinks.

Hopefully this gives some insights into the matter.

 

[fuzz092888]

I must admit, I used to go in to the Bose store near my college and screw with the employees. Not in a mean spirited way, or to make them look stupid, but for a different purpose each time.

The first time, I was just curious to see what they would say. The next couple times I wanted to see if it was consistent across employees. Once I even spoke to the manager of the store. I was always polite and courteous, but asked tough questions that I got from "google."

I also was helping to educate a friend of mine about audio and I took him to the Bose store, after taking him to a fairly decent audio store, to compare. Obviously a Bose employee came up to him to make the sales pitch, but I had prepared him with questions to ask and to ask if he could play a demo CD he had brought with him to the other store.

The Bose employee checked with the manager and they declined, they provided unsatisfactory answers where the other store's employees provided helpful and insightful answers, and a guy who previously thought Bose was top notch audio now had the veil lifted.

Bose has it's purposes, just none of them involve spending money

 

[slipperybidness]

I must admit, I used to go in to the Bose store near my college and screw with the employees. Not in a mean spirited way, or to make them look stupid, but for a different purpose each time.

The first time, I was just curious to see what they would say. The next couple times I wanted to see if it was consistent across employees. Once I even spoke to the manager of the store. I was always polite and courteous, but asked tough questions that I got from "google."

I also was helping to educate a friend of mine about audio and I took him to the Bose store, after taking him to a fairly decent audio store, to compare. Obviously a Bose employee came up to him to make the sales pitch, but I had prepared him with questions to ask and to ask if he could play a demo CD he had brought with him to the other store.

The Bose employee checked with the manager and they declined, they provided unsatisfactory answers where the other store's employees provided helpful and insightful answers, and a guy who previously thought Bose was top notch audio now had the veil lifted.

Bose has it's purposes, just none of them involve spending money

So, Bose stores won't let you play your own demo CDs? WTF?

 

[fuzz092888]

So, Bose stores won't let you play your own demo CDs? WTF?

Don't quote me on that

I just know the store I was in, on that day, wouldn't let us. It may have been because of the questions my friend asked prior to asking to play the CD. Who knows.

 

[slipperybidness]

Don't quote me on that

I just know the store I was in, on that day, wouldn't let us. It may have been because of the questions my friend asked prior to asking to play the CD. Who knows.

Gotcha. Sounds pretty fishy to me. That's not the way to sell products.

 

[fuzz092888]

Gotcha. Sounds pretty fishy to me. That's not the way to sell products.

Tell me about it. Not to mention that the store employee walked back and forth between us and his manager at least 4 times before the manager came over to talk to us himself. Not to mention the store was deserted.

 

[zieglj01]

On the pro-side, you do get specs
The 802 Panaray
http://www.bose.com/pdf/professional/802III_techdata.pdf

Panaray MA12
http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/web/panaray_ma12_modular_line_array_loudspeaker/page.html

302 Panaray
http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/web/panaray_302a_loudspeaker/page.html

 

[gene]

When a company is unwilling to list detailed specifications of their products or furnish measurements upon request, you know they aren't targeting a tech savvy clientele.

When a company doesn't submit product reviews to A/V organizations that will independently measure their products, you know they aren't targeting educated consumers.

When a company refutes 3rd party measurements of their products while also claiming their products cannot be measured by conventional methods (ie. groundplane, summed nearfield, gated in-room, etc), you know they simply aren't pursuing anything but $$$'s and certainly have no desire to pursue the science of audio even if their marketing slogans claim otherwise.

Bose is NOT the only example of an audio company that follows these type of tactics IMO. That being said, they are a highly successful company that offers great customer service and perceived value to their LARGE customer base of NON-audiophiles.

 

[gmichael]

When a company is unwilling to list detailed specifications of their products or furnish measurements upon request, you know they aren't targeting a tech savvy clientele.

When a company doesn't submit product reviews to A/V organizations that will independently measure their products, you know they aren't targeting educated consumers.

When a company refutes 3rd party measurements of their products while also claiming their products cannot be measured by conventional methods (ie. groundplane, summed nearfield, gated in-room, etc), you know they simply aren't pursuing anything but $$$'s and certainly have no desire to pursue the science of audio even if their marketing slogans claim otherwise.

Bose is NOT the only example of an audio company that follows these type of tactics IMO. That being said, they are a highly successful company that offers great customer service and perceived value to their LARGE customer base of NON-audiophiles.

That about sums it up nicely.

 

[Steve81]

certainly have no desire to pursue the science of audio even if their marketing slogans claim otherwise.

On the up side, assuming the company continues to do well, MIT should see a substantial benefit from the shares of the company that Dr. Bose donated to them. The shares can't be sold, but they do get a dividend paid out, which is probably not insignificant.

 

[zieglj01]

302 Panaray
Panaray 302 A Loudspeaker - Bose Professional Systems - Product overview

And if you desire, some Bose measurements here.
http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/assets/pdf/en/tds_panaray_302a_loudspeaker.pdf

And, the 802 Panaray
http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/assets/pdf/en/tds_panaray_802_series3_loudspeaker.pdf

 

[gtpsuper24]

When a company is unwilling to list detailed specifications of their products or furnish measurements upon request, you know they aren't targeting a tech savvy clientele.

When a company doesn't submit product reviews to A/V organizations that will independently measure their products, you know they aren't targeting educated consumers.

When a company refutes 3rd party measurements of their products while also claiming their products cannot be measured by conventional methods (ie. groundplane, summed nearfield, gated in-room, etc), you know they simply aren't pursuing anything but $$$'s and certainly have no desire to pursue the science of audio even if their marketing slogans claim otherwise.

Bose is NOT the only example of an audio company that follows these type of tactics IMO. That being said, they are a highly successful company that offers great customer service and perceived value to their LARGE customer base of NON-audiophiles.

1. I think some companys actually want there products judged by how they sound, not a line on a graph. I've fairly tech savy but purchased products without seeing every measurement or any for that matter. I've bought from several companys that did not provide anything but I also never asked either. I think I received great sounding and outstanding quality stuff. The company emailing me the graphs or posting them on there site doesn't change my opinion.

2. Smaller companys can have much smaller profit margins. Does Audioholics test these products for free or is there a charge? Does a company want quality products at low prices but not advertise or plaster ads and paid for reviews on every site but offer lower quality products at high uncompetitive prices. I guess I'm getting at, just because its not reviewed by 3rd party doesn't mean the company is a greedy money making machine or lacks faith in there products. I would rather buy from a company that focuses on word of mouth marketing from owners of the product than a company that buys up glowing reviews or product of the year award. (THIS IS NOT AIMED AT AUDIOHOLICS) I can drop a serious amount of cash at a 3rd party "pro" reviewer and make them go gaga over a product. This isn't just in the AV industry but everywhere.

3. Totally agree. Its one thing to not provide measurements its another to refute measurements because it doesn't jive with a marketing slogan/plan.

4. Agree again. Theres some great MARKETING companys making high profit speakers out there.