Disappointed with B&W P4

[GranteedEV]

The Rythmiks are definitely a great choice for commercial subs. They use direct servo to damp backwave reflections and higher order distortion products for a very clean sound. The Sealed 15" that acu def tech uses is a good choice. With that said they seem to have some inductance or otherwise high frequency issues that make them just somewhat inflexible for smooth integration (at times) with smaller speakers. I don't know how smoothly they would work as recommended by TLS guy... you would need to find out first. I think they're intended for crossovers around 80hz (which fwiw could still integrate well imo)

In general I recommend

-multiple (2 to 4) subs (which will help you take the room out of the equation and achieve flatter, consistent response over multiple seats)

-lots of radiating surface area(dual 12", or 13.5", 15", 18" or even 21" - assuming they have shorting rings / low inductance) as they generally produce less distortion (less driver excursion)

-internally well damped enclosures (a qtc around .45 to .6 is preferable, although it does get masked by the room to an extent). To an extent, if the box doesn't audible ring, you can EQ a higher qtc IE .707 to flat with a linkwitz transform.

-equalization / appropriate amp power / ability to measure 1/12th of an octave

Of course the above doesn't take budgets or room factors into account and that's understandable. But the above are the criteria i recommend. Look into Funky waves, SVS, Seaton Sound, Rythmik, HSU, and Salk to name a few.

I recommend DIY though... you could even try something interesting and try out a pair of stereo U-Frames with Peerless 12" woofers. U-Frames have semi-cardioid behavior that loads the room in unique manner with the added advantage of "no box" to color the sound. Because of the way they load the room they are least prone to audibly offensive room modes/nodes.

 

[acoustique]

Hi guys,
TLS Guy GREAT review for Celestion.I appreciate that! ..But please what exactly is " SL 6 is not an in your face speaker" and I try to understand your expresion "If its tizz and fizz you want..the SL 6 is not the speaker for you."
Sory, but I not speak english so well Anyway, i appreciate if you can recommand others good amplif, sources-cd player, tuner radio, etc.for Celestinon sl6...corse the subwoofer.BTW, I don't want to spend lot of money in subwoofer ..maybe 100,150, 250 dollars or euro...and my location is Romania
Thanks a lot.
@AcuDefTechGuy
Thanks for recomand. I try to find some these subwoofers.

 

[acoustique]

Nice! THANKS GrantedEV! I just search in google about your subs.

 

[GranteedEV]

Nice! THANKS GrantedEV! I just search in google about your subs.

I think in Europe, DIY is likely your best bet with some Seas, Peerless, or Volt Radial drivers. You should be able to get SVS and Epik subs up there, though. But with your budget you're pretty limited. If you've got some woodworking i gear, the Peerless 12" U-Frame is likely your best bet. start with one and see if you like it, and then add a second sub for stereo if you choose so.

You will need two of these drivers for a U-Frame:

http://www.europe-audio.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=7749

Plus an amp at the very least. While most subwoofers are omnidirectional, this is not quite, so you need to aim the axis towards you for best response.

Anyway, i appreciate if you can recommand others good amplif, sources-cd player, tuner radio, etc.for Celestinon sl6...corse the subwoofer.BTW,

Don't concern yourself much over sources, or preamps. What you have already is probably the best you may ever need for what you listen to. Not a very smart place to put your money. The speakers are what creates the "sound", the room contributes as well. Even if you want to believe electronics have signitures, just realize that at best it's maybe 5% of what you hear. Worry about the other 95% first, because chances are very likely it's not the best it can be. Adding 5% to 10% is still 15%, whereas adding 60% to 10% is 70% ;P

Even amplifiers are barely audibly different within their limits. Avoid tubes, they're sometimes different, but that doesn't imply higher fidelity. The main thing is having enough voltage and current for your speakers, and you probably already do.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi guys,
TLS Guy GREAT review for Celestion.I appreciate that! ..But please what exactly is " SL 6 is not an in your face speaker" and I try to understand your expresion "If its tizz and fizz you want..the SL 6 is not the speaker for you."
Sory, but I not speak english so well Anyway, i appreciate if you can recommand others good amplif, sources-cd player, tuner radio, etc.for Celestinon sl6...corse the subwoofer.BTW, I don't want to spend lot of money in subwoofer ..maybe 100,150, 250 dollars or euro...and my location is Romania
Thanks a lot.
@AcuDefTechGuy
Thanks for recomand. I try to find some these subwoofers.

It means they don't have an exaggerated HF response. It is nice, smooth and accurate.

 

[GranteedEV]

BTW, Rythmik does offer kits as well, if you're willing to order from USA I think it's more economical than shipping a full subwoofer.

 

[TLS Guy]

BTW, Rythmik does offer kits as well, if you're willing to order from USA I think it's more economical than shipping a full subwoofer.

I think him being in Romania makes advising him very problematic indeed.

Decent European subs are far and few between. Shipping anything from the US to Romania, I bet will be a killer. He needs to let is know what subs he has access to in Romania.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

He could get SVS sub from EU dealer:
http://eu.lsound.no/default.aspx

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Rythmiks are definitely a great choice for commercial subs. They use direct servo to damp backwave reflections and higher order distortion products for a very clean sound. The Sealed 15" that acu def tech uses is a good choice. With that said they seem to have some inductance or otherwise high frequency issues that make them just somewhat inflexible for smooth integration (at times) with smaller speakers.

It appears there are 2 modes: LFE and AVR.

The AVR has the limited Response (14Hz-80Hz), but the LFE has the wider response of (14Hz-120Hz??).

I don't know why Rythmik didn't make all the modes 14Hz-150Hz?

 

[GranteedEV]

I think him being in Romania makes advising him very problematic indeed.

Decent European subs are far and few between. Shipping anything from the US to Romania, I bet will be a killer. He needs to let is know what subs he has access to in Romania.

For European brick and mortar brands, I just imagine .5 cu ft vented subs with low excursion 10 inch drivers tuned an octave too low

 

[acoustique]

I think him being in Romania makes advising him very problematic indeed.

Decent European subs are far and few between. Shipping anything from the US to Romania, I bet will be a killer. He needs to let is know what subs he has access to in Romania.

You're rght TLS Guy, shipping anything from the US is really difficult... maybe is difficult to find some good woofer in Romania.Anyway, if you know somes decent brand/model I try to search...BTW, right now I listen ESSAIRA- Canton... is some Budha Bar ambiental volume..aaand the sound is really AMAZING!..YOU're right TLS, the Clestion's is so ...CORECTLY. I like them more and more

@GranteedEV & AcuDefTechGuy- THANK'S guy , very good your infos but unfurtunatly I'm not a specialist in woofer's ..so, some brand/models if is posible to tell me?

 

[acoustique]

Sory for disturb , but I have another questions to ask:

I want to upgrade the original old capacitors from Celestion SL6... I think is a litle to old and upgrading the capacitors make the sound higher&better. Can you reccomand some capacitors for this operation?...But I don't no What kind of capacitors (values&power, etc) make the Celestion SL6 optimum sound.

thx!

 

[TLS Guy]

Sory for disturb , but I have another questions to ask:

I want to upgrade the original old capacitors from Celestion SL6... I think is a litle to old and upgrading the capacitors make the sound higher&better. Can you reccomand some capacitors for this operation?...But I don't no What kind of capacitors (values&power, etc) make the Celestion SL6 optimum sound.

thx!

I don't have a circuit for the crossover. They are not electrolytic though, so the caps it has will be fine. Leave it alone.

The tweeters are very frail when you handle them and you would have to take the drivers out. Chances are you will ruin them.

 

[acoustique]

I don't have a circuit for the crossover. They are not electrolytic though, so the caps it has will be fine. Leave it alone.

The tweeters are very frail when you handle them and you would have to take the drivers out. Chances are you will ruin them.

non electrolytic caps? hm, I was thinking about Solen or Mcap Mundorf caps must be ok... corse at the same values(power,impedance,rezist.uF,etc). I was thinking the components are a little worn...at 30 years old
But probably you know very well ( much more like me ;-) )how much resistance as they components.
Anyway, I will be happy to have a Celestion sl6 plans to see this sophisticated crossover circuit.

 

[acoustique]

Sory TLS Guy, but by pure curiosity yesterday I opened the speakers. wher I saw the 2 caps:
1. the Alcap 50v at 4,7 uF
and
2. the starCon cap : 100v at 10uF, +/-10% LL ... ?!

BUT I'm not shore if the Starcon cap is the original!...I ask because I can see clearly how it stuck on circuit...and corse I don't like this . Talking with another Celestion SL6 owner on the net, he told me that the original StraCon cap. has to 8uf 50V!!!...
I was curious to find initial values ​​of capacitors. So you can give me all the values?
About the Alcap cap.I guess at least they are the original :50v at 4,7uF...you can confirm?..
I ask because is REALLY DIFFICULT to find some crossover circuit on the net.
Thx and..have a nice day
best regards
acoustique.

 

[TLS Guy]

Sory TLS Guy, but by pure curiosity yesterday I opened the speakers. wher I saw the 2 caps:
1. the Alcap 50v at 4,7 uF
and
2. the starCon cap : 100v at 10uF, +/-10% LL ... ?!

BUT I'm not shore if the Starcon cap is the original!...I ask because I can see clearly how it stuck on circuit...and corse I don't like this . Talking with another Celestion SL6 owner on the net, he told me that the original StraCon cap. has to 8uf 50V!!!...
I was curious to find initial values ​​of capacitors. So you can give me all the values?
About the Alcap cap.I guess at least they are the original :50v at 4,7uF...you can confirm?..
I ask because is REALLY DIFFICULT to find some crossover circuit on the net.
Thx and..have a nice day
best regards
acoustique.

I do not have a circuit for that crossover.

What I do know is that is a simple second order high and low pass.

This forms a composite fourth order filter when driver slopes are taken into account. So there should be two inductors and two caps in each crossover. The caps are polypropylene type and do not need changing.

I suspect the parts are factory. The voltage is not important and just has to be adequate. So whether it is 50 or 100 volt makes no difference.

A difference of 8 or 10 mfd will make no audible difference, and I suspect Celestion used what was available.

Components in crossovers are usually heat glued to the board to stop vibration .

There is a lot of miss information on the Net about these speakers I see.

There are claims of a complex crossover and notch filters causing close to a short circuit. This is all nonsense.

The drivers were designed to be well behaved, and the simple crossover works well.

They are small sealed speakers and they are down by 6 db at 60 Hz and so will be 18 db down at 30 Hz.

They would really work well crossed over to a sub at 80 Hz.

The most reliable information I can find for you is John Borwick's original review in Gramophone.

My advice still stands, leave those speakers alone. You can only spoil them.

 

[acoustique]

THX TLS Guy!
Your infos is very very important to me!
Yes, I understand how is not important the diference 8 or 10 mfd...but remember this is the values for the changed caps -the Fastcon caps (10 mF at 100v)... BUT the Alcap caps have 4,7 uF at.50Vnp (+/- 10%)...THIS diference betwen the capacitors is not important to?...and BTW this specification +/-10% what does?
The Gramophone review is very fair: the Celestion SL6 has clarity, very articulate , right bass, very precise stereo imaging... IF they are coupled to a power amplifier, but most important good sources.

 

[acoustique]

Hi TLS Guy,
finally, I discovered what kind of caps has the original in Celestion SL6: two 4.7uf 50v Alcap and two 8uf 50v Alcap.... So, mine original is only the 4,7 -50Vn Alcap, and were changed the Alcap 8uF-50Vn with this Fastcon 10uF - 100 V.
Conclusion is: YOU're right, the diference no exist...or is minimal.THX.

 

[acoustique]

I do not have a circuit for that crossover.

What I do know is that is a simple second order high and low pass.

This forms a composite fourth order filter when driver slopes are taken into account. So there should be two inductors and two caps in each crossover. The caps are polypropylene type and do not need changing.

I suspect the parts are factory. The voltage is not important and just has to be adequate. So whether it is 50 or 100 volt makes no difference.

A difference of 8 or 10 mfd will make no audible difference, and I suspect Celestion used what was available.

Components in crossovers are usually heat glued to the board to stop vibration .

There is a lot of miss information on the Net about these speakers I see.

There are claims of a complex crossover and notch filters causing close to a short circuit. This is all nonsense.

The drivers were designed to be well behaved, and the simple crossover works well.

They are small sealed speakers and they are down by 6 db at 60 Hz and so will be 18 db down at 30 Hz.

They would really work well crossed over to a sub at 80 Hz.

The most reliable information I can find for you is John Borwick's original review in Gramophone.

My advice still stands, leave those speakers alone. You can only spoil them.

the original CELESTION SL6 caps are : bipolar ALCAP 9made in England) -4,7 MFD/ 50VDC at +/-10% tolerance , LL(Low Loss) and 8 MFD/50VDC at +/-10% tolerance LL...is a blue color and I'm still searching to changing with the same in my SL6...but is imposible to find.

 

[acoustique]

Just one curiosity: why on the crossover the 4,7MFD capacitor is at LF(low frecvence?!) and the 8MFD in...HF(high frecvence?!). hm! the Celestion SL6 crossover is so complicated.