Disappointed with B&W P4

[ifsixwasnin9]

I was really looking forward to getting these small 2-way towers (S/N: 88 dB; Retail $600) after reading the great reviews at audioreviews and I got a steal on demo models on Ebay for $210. One cabinet arrived slightly damaged and one tweeter was pushed in and didn't work. (No foam was used in packaging.) They are like mini towers. The tweeters sound a little colored, vocals don't sound 100% realistic, the mids are not very present and the bass is muddy which I didn't expect. They do fill a 13x15 room well. Using Sansui AU-517 60 wpc to power these. They required a lot of pushing to get to a moderate listening level, something which my Polk Monitor 10 or JBL L100 don't have a problem with. Guess I'll continue my search for good speakers. (I feel my Polk/JBL have some problems here and there.)

 

[manlystanley]

I was really looking forward to getting these small 2-way towers (S/N: 88 dB; Retail $600) after reading the great reviews at audioreviews and I got a steal on demo models on Ebay for $210. One cabinet arrived slightly damaged and one tweeter was pushed in and didn't work. (No foam was used in packaging.) They are like mini towers. The tweeters sound a little colored, vocals don't sound 100% realistic, the mids are not very present and the bass is muddy which I didn't expect. They do fill a 13x15 room well. Using Sansui AU-517 60 wpc to power these. They required a lot of pushing to get to a moderate listening level, something which my Polk Monitor 10 or JBL L100 don't have a problem with. Guess I'll continue my search for good speakers. (I feel my Polk/JBL have some problems here and there.)

Bummer. Sorry about your bad luck. I've owned two pairs of B&W speakers, and I've liked them, but thought they were overpriced. Is the problem that you get limited bass or what?

Thanks,
Stan

 

[jamie2112]

Turn them around on craigslist,I am sure you can get $400 or so for them ......good luck sorry bout your purchase.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was really looking forward to getting these small 2-way towers (S/N: 88 dB; Retail $600) after reading the great reviews at audioreviews and I got a steal on demo models on Ebay for $210. One cabinet arrived slightly damaged and one tweeter was pushed in and didn't work. (No foam was used in packaging.) They are like mini towers. The tweeters sound a little colored, vocals don't sound 100% realistic, the mids are not very present and the bass is muddy which I didn't expect. They do fill a 13x15 room well. Using Sansui AU-517 60 wpc to power these. They required a lot of pushing to get to a moderate listening level, something which my Polk Monitor 10 or JBL L100 don't have a problem with. Guess I'll continue my search for good speakers. (I feel my Polk/JBL have some problems here and there.)

Did you fix the tweeter that did not work with a B & W exact replacement? If not the speakers are useless.

Also those are four ohm speakers, your Sansui will at best deliver 30 watts per channel to those speakers. Minimum power rating is 50 watts fer channel.

The speakers have to be placed well away from wall boundaries. Please see the review by Geoffrey Horn, a true veteran in speaker reviews. He reviewed it for Gramophone.

 

[ifsixwasnin9]

No, the bass responds well but not defined. I'm trying to return them. I can't resell them because one corner is dented and w/o one working tweeter. This B&W link says these speakers are 8 ohms. The kevlar honeycomb cones are designed to reduce standing waves. Literature says a special tapered duct is used inside to produce good bass response. The inside of the cabinet is actually just lined with cheap insulation.

http://assets.bowers-wilkins.com/med/Libraries/3/P4_Archive_l2_w0_h0.pdf

(My Polk Monitor 10 don't have enough bass and entire range could be more defined, imo. JBL L100s I just picked up have plenty of problems if you've read some of the in-depth L100 analyses on the web: cabinets are too small for the 123A woofer, cabinets as are should not be ported and crossovers should be upgraded.)

Good article on the P4. Impedance does drop to 4 ohms.

ADDENDUM: I jumped the gun a little bit. These do sound more refined than I thought. I put these to the test with Black Sabbath - The Mob Rules and they are holding up pretty well at higher volume (volume = 25%). The vocals sound better the higher the volume and the mids sing better, as well. These would definitely be good speakers for jazz or classical. Maybe I should get a higher power amp to run these?

 

[TLS Guy]

No, the bass responds well but not defined. I'm trying to return them. I can't resell them because one corner is dented and w/o one working tweeter. This B&W link says these speakers are 8 ohms. The kevlar honeycomb cones are designed to reduce standing waves. Literature says a special tapered duct is used inside to produce good bass response. The inside of the cabinet is actually just lined with cheap insulation.

http://assets.bowers-wilkins.com/med/Libraries/3/P4_Archive_l2_w0_h0.pdf

(My Polk Monitor 10 don't have enough bass and entire range could be more defined, imo. JBL L100s I just picked up have plenty of problems if you've read some of the in-depth L100 analyses on the web: cabinets are too small for the 123A woofer, cabinets as are should not be ported and crossovers should be upgraded.)

Good article on the P4. Impedance does drop to 4 ohms.

Geoffrey horn measured them at 4 ohms, which is what I would expect. What a manufacturer says the impedance is means nothing.

I think you actually have a pretty decent set of speakers. With one tweeter not working it will sound unbalanced and pass heavy.

For those speakers to be any good, you have to have an exact tweeter replacement from B & W or have them repair yours.

 

[tubeampsrule]

I believe I currently own the P4 speakers you purchased on Ebay. I now own several pairs of these remarkable speakers and have learned much more about them in the past year since I acquired your pair. It appears that the performance of the tweeters in these speakers last for about 15 years and then begin to degrade. Prior to picking up your pair (originally offered as parts) I had just "re-tweetered" another pair of P4's. The replacement tweeters are not cheap and will set you back about $250 for a pair. They are worth every penny however. The new pair of tweeters made a huge difference, restoring all of the lost upper frequencies. Your pair had one working tweeter that had also lost much of it's ability to reproduce higher frequencies. Once I replaced the old tweeters the speakers blossomed back to life. As for the bass & mids not being well defined you actually touched on the reason for that problem in your post when you mentioned the P4's require a lot of pushing. P4's MUST be fed by a high current, high output amplifier. Without one the P4's sound flat and uninspired. A 60 watt per channel Sansui isn't even close to adequate for the P4's. I bring this up only because I would hate to see people overlook the B&W P series because it is arguably one of the best intermediate speakers they ever made. If you have a high quality amplifier ( I use NAD C270's) the P series are gems, far more detailed than any of the 600 series speaker Ive heard, and far better than most speakers in their class.They remind me very much of the current CDM's. Not too shabby for a speaker system that you can land for a few hundred bucks on the used market.

 

[TLS Guy]

I believe I currently own the P4 speakers you purchased on Ebay. I now own several pairs of these remarkable speakers and have learned much more about them in the past year since I acquired your pair. It appears that the performance of the tweeters in these speakers last for about 15 years and then begin to degrade. Prior to picking up your pair (originally offered as parts) I had just "re-tweetered" another pair of P4's. The replacement tweeters are not cheap and will set you back about $250 for a pair. They are worth every penny however. The new pair of tweeters made a huge difference, restoring all of the lost upper frequencies. Your pair had one working tweeter that had also lost much of it's ability to reproduce higher frequencies. Once I replaced the old tweeters the speakers blossomed back to life. As for the bass & mids not being well defined you actually touched on the reason for that problem in your post when you mentioned the P4's require a lot of pushing. P4's MUST be fed by a high current, high output amplifier. Without one the P4's sound flat and uninspired. A 60 watt per channel Sansui isn't even close to adequate for the P4's. I bring this up only because I would hate to see people overlook the B&W P series because it is arguably one of the best intermediate speakers they ever made. If you have a high quality amplifier ( I use NAD C270's) the P series are gems, far more detailed than any of the 600 series speaker Ive heard, and far better than most speakers in their class.They remind me very much of the current CDM's. Not too shabby for a speaker system that you can land for a few hundred bucks on the used market.

Thanks for this interesting post.

I think just about every B & W speaker requires first class amplification. Probably none of them should be powered by entry or mid level receivers and possibly by no receivers. Even a lot of the 600 series are difficult loads. That makes the whole reason for the 600 series problematic.

There is far too much of any amp will do round here. Receivers in general have really miserable output devices, crammed in far too close together.

 

[Moon Rappin]

Hello to everyone and to "tubeampsrule",
Thanks for posting some information regarding the tweeter performance of the B&W P4s. I've owned a pair for about 6-7 years that were purchased as my first set of higher quality speakers. Upon initial listening I felt that the high frequency range was definitely lacking. At the time I wasn't sure if my ears were accustomed to cheap quality speakers, or if there was an issue with the tweeters. Eventually I decided that it was the tweeters, but have never been able to source any replacements. Shortly after buying the P4's I moved on and these speakers have been boxed up in a closet for years. I'd like to bring them back to life, or at least make them sell-able. Can I ask where you have found tweeter replacements? Over the years I've tried sending B&W a few emails, but have never got a response.
Thanks

 

[acoustique]

So, is any good this speakers>? I want to change my celestion sl6 with this speakers, because I need more soundstage and deep controlled bass. They are of a friend.
Celestion sl6 ist really good speakers, very neutral, excellent detail and midrange, great sound for jazz, ambiental and voices, but UNFORTUNATELY to small and restrictiv bass for my living room.

 

[TLS Guy]

So, is any good this speakers>? I want to change my celestion sl6 with this speakers, because I need more soundstage and deep controlled bass. They are of a friend.
Celestion sl6 ist really good speakers, very neutral, excellent detail and midrange, great sound for jazz, ambiental and voices, but UNFORTUNATELY to small and restrictiv bass for my living room.

The speakers you have are much better. The Celestion SL 6 is a classic and beautifully voiced.

If you want more bass, then get a good sealed sub.

The P4s are colored by comparison. As the previous poster mentioned the tweeters on the P4 need fairly frequent replacement and are very expensive.

Also the P4s require massive amplification.

If you do get the P4s, do NOT sell the SL 6. You will be very sorry if you do.

A sub is your solution.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The speakers you have are much better...

If you want more bass, then get a good sealed sub...

The (B&W) P4s are colored by comparison...

I can believe that.

This is a little off topic, but have you guys listened to those expensive B&W computer speakers they sell in those Apple stores? They sound just like the Bose computer speakers sitting right next to them. What a rip off!

 

[markw]

I can believe that.

This is a little off topic, but have you guys listened to those expensive B&W computer speakers they sell in those Apple stores? They sound just like the Bose computer speakers sitting right next to them. What a rip off!

That just goes to show ya how good Bose speakers really are...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That just goes to show ya how good Bose speakers really are...

Or just how overpriced B&W & Bose are???

 

[acoustique]

The speakers you have are much better. The Celestion SL 6 is a classic and beautifully voiced.

If you want more bass, then get a good sealed sub.

The P4s are colored by comparison. As the previous poster mentioned the tweeters on the P4 need fairly frequent replacement and are very expensive.

Also the P4s require massive amplification.

If you do get the P4s, do NOT sell the SL 6. You will be very sorry if you do.

A sub is your solution.

THANK'S Tguys!
THANK'S for your replay TLS Guy. I told you, i know how good voice arent Celestion sl6, but like B&W P4 need massive amplification... at 84 dB sensibility. My amplifier is Yamaha AX 892 so I have nice power for them.(with CD player yamaha CDX870, tape deck yamaha KX530)
BTW, i suppose others amplifiers make a better matching?!..i heard about Rotel or Nad... but I don't now if in fact these arent so powerfull to make best sound with Celestion sl6.
True, with Celestion sl6 I realized how good amplifier I have, more important how good or BAD are my sources(cd player and tape deck) and corse how many bad records/poorly recorded cd's I have... because, remember, Celestion SL6 is very neutral speakers, and NOT forgive the sound. Anyway, the subwoofer is not my type... really I don't like the low frecvencies from separate subwoofer.
Maybe I change the amplifier with another...or some tube DYI amplifier

 

[TLS Guy]

THANK'S Tguys!
THANK'S for your replay TLS Guy. I told you, i know how good voice arent Celestion sl6, but like B&W P4 need massive amplification... at 84 dB sensibility. My amplifier is Yamaha AX 892 so I have nice power for them.(with CD player yamaha CDX870, tape deck yamaha KX530)
BTW, i suppose others amplifiers make a better matching?!..i heard about Rotel or Nad... but I don't now if in fact these arent so powerfull to make best sound with Celestion sl6.
True, with Celestion sl6 I realized how good amplifier I have, more important how good or BAD are my sources(cd player and tape deck) and corse how many bad records/poorly recorded cd's I have... because, remember, Celestion SL6 is very neutral speakers, and NOT forgive the sound. Anyway, the subwoofer is not my type... really I don't like the low frecvencies from separate subwoofer.
Maybe I change the amplifier with another...or some tube DYI amplifier

Your speakers are what they are. Changing amps will not change a thing. The Celestions are actually quite an easy drive.

A sub is your best bet. Your opposition is irrational.

You have a nice set of speakers you like. You will more likely than not be unhappy with your next speakers. Few speakers are as accurate and neutral across the mid band, where it counts as yours.

Do research and get a good neutral sealed sub and bring the sub in with your Celestions around 90 Hz. You do not need to cross the Celestions over, just gently support them. The Celestions are sealed and have a nice second order roll off in the bass which is ideal for sub supplementation. Ideally get two subs. We can guide you to make the blend seamless.

Bottom line: - rigid thinking will cost you money and likely result in a poorer result.

 

[GranteedEV]

Anyway, the subwoofer is not my type... really I don't like the low frecvencies from separate subwoofer.

Huh? This does not even make sense. Do you think low frequencies from a detached woofer sound different from.. uh... low frequencies from an attached woofer?

You'd be surprised just how good "subwoofer" bass can be.

Maybe I change the amplifier with another...or some tube DYI amplifier

let's solve all of our problems by doing things totally unrelated to them

 

[acoustique]

Your speakers are what they are. Changing amps will not change a thing. The Celestions are actually quite an easy drive.

A sub is your best bet. Your opposition is irrational.

You have a nice set of speakers you like. You will more likely than not be unhappy with your next speakers. Few speakers are as accurate and neutral across the mid band, where it counts as yours.

Do research and get a good neutral sealed sub and bring the sub in with your Celestions around 90 Hz. You do not need to cross the Celestions over, just gently support them. The Celestions are sealed and have a nice second order roll off in the bass which is ideal for sub supplementation. Ideally get two subs. We can guide you to make the blend seamless.

Bottom line: - rigid thinking will cost you money and likely result in a poorer result.

THANK YOU again my friends!
So TLS Guy I really apprecate your words, your opinion ..corse your xperience. What kind of subwoofer do you recommend?
I'm currios about some blend seamless!...So, you see? I'm not so rigid how you think about me .. I would be very interested what kind of sources make the good matching with celestion? about amplifier Yamaha AX 892 I have no reproaches :is a top end amplifier from yamaha, have a lot of power(115 w in 8 ohmi, or 180 w in 4 ohmi), the sound is good, correct, especially if I I press the option " Pure Direct". .. but maybe the sources need upgrade? Why I ask, because I find the highs are not very open/brights on Yamaha CDX 870...even this player is another vintage top from yamaha.

Thank's again!

p.s.: BTW, about the british speakers, what kind of speakers is wharfedale diamond 9.2 or 9.3?

 

[TLS Guy]

THANK YOU again my friends!
So TLS Guy I really apprecate your words, your opinion ..corse your xperience. What kind of subwoofer do you recommend?
I'm currios about some blend seamless!...So, you see? I'm not so rigid how you think about me .. I would be very interested what kind of sources make the good matching with celestion? about amplifier Yamaha AX 892 I have no reproaches :is a top end amplifier from yamaha, have a lot of power(115 w in 8 ohmi, or 180 w in 4 ohmi), the sound is good, correct, especially if I I press the option " Pure Direct". .. but maybe the sources need upgrade? Why I ask, because I find the highs are not very open/brights on Yamaha CDX 870...even this player is another vintage top from yamaha.

Thank's again!

p.s.: BTW, about the british speakers, what kind of speakers is wharfedale diamond 9.2 or 9.3?

I have not heard the Wharfedale, but it seems to have a good reputation of late. I know your Celestions well.

The Celestion SL 6 is not an in your face speaker, but the highs are there and balanced. The tweeters are excellent and of unique design. A lot of hard work was put into their development and the manufacture was complex. If its tizz and fizz you want the SL 6 is not the speaker for you.

What is your budget for a sub and where are you located?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A great accurate tight subwoofer with a Q value of 0.5 will make all the difference in the audio world.

I own the Linkwtiz Orion speakers -- Response -3 dB at 30 Hz (-6 dB at 20 Hz for Q = 0.5).

At first I was reluctant to add a subwoofer because the Orion speakers already sounded great by themselves.

But when I added a Rythmik 15" sealed subwoofer (14Hz @ -2dB, Q=0.5), the sound was so much better.

Just make sure whatever subwoofer you get has a Q value of 0.5. I'm sure there are plenty of there.