difference between integrated and discrete amplification

T

tmstallman

Audiophyte
Having gotten no response on the audiophyte forum, I'll ask my question here. What is the difference between integrated amplification and discrete amplification ? Why are discrete amplifiers considered better ? Can you actually HEAR a difference ?
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
tmstallman said:
Having gotten no response on the audiophyte forum, I'll ask my question here. What is the difference between integrated amplification and discrete amplification ? Why are discrete amplifiers considered better ? Can you actually HEAR a difference ?
.....Tmstallman, are we referencing and comparing an integrated amplifier where a stereo pre-amp and two amp sections are combined in one housing with no tuner/radio section, to a stereo slave amp with signal sent from a seperate pre-amp?.....

.....if so, the rule of thumb is, seperates generally bring a better result, as one piece of audio equipment is assigned to, and concentrates on, one task.....

.....apologies that your question was missed at the other section/forum.....
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
mulester7 said:
.....apologies that your question was missed at the other section/forum.....
no need for apologies. the exact same question was asked there and the exact same request for clarification was issued there as well.

Since he didn't bother to clarify his question when asked, nobody could really answer it there. And, unless clarification is forthcoming here, I predict the same results.
 
Last edited:
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for the defense Mark. I just checked and he never answered my question...I would've been happy to answer his question.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I think we all would have liked to answer it.

But, if he doesn't care enough about responding to clarify his ambigious question, why should I care enough to even bother?
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
.....it was worded differently at the other forum also....I don't know, guys, I guess I was just trying to be nice....bad habit, maybe....nice guys don't finish last all the time though, shoot, look at Privateer, haha....by the way, where is his worthless carcuss?.....
 
P

Privateer

Full Audioholic
The only sure way to tell is to audition a set up and see if "you" can hear a difference.
 
T

tmstallman

Audiophyte
OK, I didnt articulate my question very well, a thousand apologies. Let me try again. I have been told that there are one of two types of amplification inside a receiver, one called discrete and one called integrated, they are mutually exclusive. This is not the same as an "integrated" amp. I understand what that is. This has to do with the electronics INSIDE the receiver. Integrated amps are supposed to be better than discrete amps for some reason. My question is: What is the difference?
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
tmstallman said:
OK, I didnt articulate my question very well, a thousand apologies. Let me try again. I have been told that there are one of two types of amplification inside a receiver, one called discrete and one called integrated, they are mutually exclusive. This is not the same as an "integrated" amp. I understand what that is. This has to do with the electronics INSIDE the receiver. Integrated amps are supposed to be better than discrete amps for some reason. My question is: What is the difference?
Read this:
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/PrevPubs/Preamp/preamps.htm
and
http://www.ami.ac.uk/courses/ami4614_cica/u02/index.asp

Technically speaking, discrete amps minimize transistor count, the devices usually don't match, have arbitrary resistor values, and the capacitors range from 1pF...10mF. Integrated CMOS amps can feature an unlimited number of transistors, devices match well, keep resistors <10...100k, and keep capacitors <10...50pF. Some say CMOS succumb to poor noise, transconductance, and intrinsic gain. Finally, integrated amps are usually lower in wattage.
 
T

tmstallman

Audiophyte
Now I get it ! It really doesnt make a difference in terms of sound quality. thanks for speedy reply
 
Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
basically: An integrated amps power supply has to share its precious life-juice with the pre-amp section. A seperate amp does not.
 
C

collin

Audiophyte
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Read this:
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/PrevPubs/Preamp/preamps.htm
and
http://www.ami.ac.uk/courses/ami4614_cica/u02/index.asp

Technically speaking, discrete amps minimize transistor count, the devices usually don't match, have arbitrary resistor values, and the capacitors range from 1pF...10mF. Integrated CMOS amps can feature an unlimited number of transistors, devices match well, keep resistors <10...100k, and keep capacitors <10...50pF. Some say CMOS succumb to poor noise, transconductance, and intrinsic gain. Finally, integrated amps are usually lower in wattage.
I'm not sure the two linked articles have any direct relevance. Neither is about home audio gear. The first is about preamps used for the magnetic pickups in bass guitars. The second is about radio frequency communications equipment.

I believe the original poster's question has not been correctly understood. He's asking about amplication in a receiver, so it is not likely that he is asking about the preamp, but more the power amp that drives the speakers.

In that context, discrete and integrated amplication has the following meaning:
- an integrated amplifier circuit (not the same thing as an integrated amplifier system combining a pre-amp and a power amp) means that the output transitors have been integrated onto a chip along with other components to make an integrated circuit. to make an analogy with computer equipment, which more people may be familiar with, this is similar to the way that many computer functions (graphics, sound, etc.) have been integrated into the motherboard chipset.

- a discrete amplifier circuit means that separate "discrete" power transistors are used to do the amplification.

The reason discrete power amp designs are considered better than integrated is because in general, a discrete design can use larger devices that can drive more current. An integrated amp usually cannot drive as much current because its size is limited to combine it onto another chip with other circuitry. This is one reason why low-cost receivers generally tend to run out of steam under heavy load real-world conditions. Discrete devices can also be mounted directly to heat sinks for better cooling whereas an integrated amp's thermal load must be compromised with the rest of the chip so as not to burn out the rest of the circuitry. There may also be noise, interference, or cross-talk between the various sections of the integrated chip because they are in such close proximity.

Contrary to what was said previously, discrete designs can made with matched transistors, but that requires the manufacturer to measure and sort the transistor by key parameters and find matching devices. This can be more expensive though. On this count, integrated amps may be able to be made with more precision, but it is unlikely that an entire chip will be rejected due to variances in its transistor or other parameters.
 
D

DVV

Audioholic Intern
Integrated amplification means that the circuit inside is based on op amps and/or all-in-one modules. I refer to complete power amps inside one single plastic cased module, such as say Sanyo's STK xxx series.

Discrete amplification means the circuit uses individual transistors to reach the desired effect. Such a circuit is by default physically larger than an integrated module, which is very compact.

Integrated modules are the way to go if you want power on the cheap. All they need is a heat sink, typically several discrete components (usually a few resistors and capacitors) and a power supply. Since you'll need the heat sink and the power supply anyway no matter how you make it, it's obvious integrated amplification is a quick way to go about it. Also far cheaper, since your manufacturing time is cut down almost nothing.

Another benefit integrated modules offer is reasonable matching, especially in terms of heating up; since everything is on the same substrate, it's matched fairly well by default, and its thermal drift will also keep it in balance by default.

On the down side, they are shut in, no tweaking, no changes, they are what they are, period. Your control over their sound is reduced to power supply design and that's it. Their most serious shortcoming are their output stages; you can put just so much power on just one substrate. When they appeared, in mid-70ies, they were horrible sounding, but over the years, they have steadily improved to the point where some of them are known to produce quite reasonable sound. Reasonable, but not great.

Discrete circuits are much more of a hassle, because you have to design each stage on its own, and then make it work in the circuit as a whole. They will take more space, they will take more time to develop and more time to manufacture, consequently, they will be more expensive. And they require you to match some devices, primarily input and output stages.

Their good sides, on the other hand, are many. You can exercise full control over their sound one stage by another, you can use different transistors while tweaking to get even better sound, you can optimize each stage for its intended function and you can make its output scalable. As a simple example, if your supply is +/-35V, using an integrated output will get you your 50W/8 ohms, but what happens when your load impedance drops? As opposed to that, making a discrete circuit allows you to use not one, but two pairs of high power, high linearity output devices, which will indeed drive 4 ohm loads just as well as 8 ohm loads, delivering the required 50/100W into 8/4 ohms.

Whether you can hear the difference depends on many things, but by and large, you can. Typically (but not necessarily), discrete amps will deliver fuller, deeper bass with more authority, the mid will be typically about the same, while the treble will again probably be better on a discrete amp. The reason is speed - integrated amplification is not known for its speed, yet a discrete circuit can be made to work extremely quickly. Consequently, its phase shifts in the audible range will tend to be smaller to inaudiable.

Please bear in mind that these are genera comments only. Simply going discrete is no guarantee any amp will sound better by default, audio history is full of discrete amps sounding bland and uninvolving, but on the other hand, off hand, I'd say at least 99.9% of amps ever considred great were discrete and not integrated designs.

Cheers,
DVV
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Some newer "digital" integrateds (aka switching amps) can offer really good sound for not a lot of money. The Tripath and B&O ICEPower modules come to mind...
 
D

DVV

Audioholic Intern
Rob Babcock said:
Some newer "digital" integrateds (aka switching amps) can offer really good sound for not a lot of money. The Tripath and B&O ICEPower modules come to mind...
Rob, I can't honestly say I have extensive experience with them, but what I've heard of them, including Tripath modules in several implementations, they are still switchers to me.

Typically, bass is outstanding, midrange standard, treble lacking. In my view, we still don't have switching transistors fast enough.

There's no doubt in my mind that these are the future of audio; but as things stand, to me, they still leave much to be desired. But they are cheap for the power offered.

Cheers,
DVV
 
MixedSignal

MixedSignal

Audiophyte
tmstallman said:
Now I get it ! It really doesnt make a difference in terms of sound quality. thanks for speedy reply
One of the articles mentioned above talks about "preamplifiers".
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/PrevPubs/Preamp/preamps.htm
It is not the same as power amp where discrete and integrated(IC) have some major differences.
Most discrete amps take more space and cost more labor and space on the board than IC amps. Also IC amps come in cheap and low quality or not so cheap and higher quality types.
It is usually assumed that discrete is better because there is more flexibility for the designer. Not always the case, a bad discrete design can be worse than a good IC. But most discrete amps have been there for a few decades, so there is more documentation and experience in making good discrete amps. Otherwise, there is a choice of good and bad integrated circuit poweramps also.
Most manufacturers use IC amps because they are cheaper and these can be found in the low end receivers. These might produce large power outputs but the distortion figures arent good.
Hence the IC amps get bad rap compared to discrete amps.

As far as sound quality is concerned... it depends more on your ears :D
 
T

tmstallman

Audiophyte
You and the previous poster have answered my question completely . One thing I learned from posting this question is that not everyone is fully "up to speed" on the "guts" of amplifiers. Your answer(s) have demystified the topic. Thanks
 
C

collin

Audiophyte
anybody care to identify which receiver manufacturers use discrete designs? or perhaps above which model point each manufacturer uses discrete?
 
D

DVV

Audioholic Intern
collin said:
anybody care to identify which receiver manufacturers use discrete designs? or perhaps above which model point each manufacturer uses discrete?
Harman/Kardon USED to make much of the fact that their power amps were in discrete technology. I lost touch with them a little, so I don't know how they fare today.

Denon uses discrete technology on some oftheir upmarket receivers; I know that models 3x nd 5x use fully complementary, fully discrete topology.

Cheers,
DVV
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top