Denon 5805- NOT a powerhouse receiver!

[markw]

Sometimes I wish there were 28hrs in a day, or cloning or both

Talk to my lawyer. He's got some creative billing procedures.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Among others, HK also provide 7 channel driven rating but I do not recall seeing any manufacturer's literatures stating that those ratings are for continuous duty. And yes, I know, there is no need to worry about continous rating at that kind of level.

Why not? My Denon has a 7 channel stereo function that I can use for parties. It will drive all my speakers at similar levels all day long. Sure the amp gets warm. That's why I've installed a cpu fan over the top grill. Funny how HK's include this fan on their better units.

 

[Dan Banquer]

Denon 5805

Are we back to this all channels driven crap again? Gene and I are going to be writing an article in the near future showing just how much bull**** this spec is. But just to give you some insight, Gene sent me a chart from THX on power distribution in a Home Theater set up and it looks exactly as I suspected. The most power consumption is the powered subwoofer, the second is the center channel and the other three channels are pretty low. Now since your HT receiver doesn't power the subwoofer the peak and average power the receiver is required to do is pretty low. This makes noise a more important factor. The toughest demand on any HT receiver will be using it for stereo without the powered subwoofer.
Now let me pile it on a little further. If you have loudspeakers that are 90 db spl or better, which is typical for Home Theater, then power consumption is practically a moot point in a 20 by 20 room with an 8 ft. ceiling. Again; noise is going to be critical factor here NOT POWER!
For all of you High Current Fanatics: the minimum impedance that most speakers have is 4 ohms especially for HT. If you understand the math, then you quickly realize that power is a function of three variables which are voltage , current and impedance. Since we don't have 2 ohms loads in HT speakers high current is also a moot point.
I've ranted enough for a Friday afternoon, I hope some of you folks will take a minute and think about a few of the subjects I have touched on.
d.b.

 

[gene]

Funny how HK's include this fan on their better units.

Actually I believe the 5805 has 2 fans but I haven't been able to get them to turn on yet

 

[Dan Banquer]

Denon 5805

"Actually I believe the 5805 has 2 fans but I haven't been able to get them to turn on yet "
Why am I not surprised.
d.b.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Gene sent me a chart from THX on power distribution in a Home Theater set up and it looks exactly as I suspected. The most power consumption is the powered subwoofer, the second is the center channel and the other three channels are pretty low.

What other three channels? You have two mains, two rears, and what about the two rear centers? That's 6, not 3. That chart is fine and dandy, but being from THX - you know it's not playing classical music through a 7 channel stereo setup. In their example, the towers, rears, and rear centers are only used a fraction of the time.

I assume you have a high end receiver with a 7 channel stereo function (or all channels driven), and of course you know the output is the same for all 7 speakers. You would also know then that your receiver heats up a lot quicker when playing 7 channel stereo versus a surround mode like DTS 6.1 ES or DD 6.1 ES. Why, then, would anyone say "are we back to this all channels driven crap" when it absolutely makes sense with the new receivers and how they can output sound in numerous ways.

 

[Dan Banquer]

Denon 5805

Your right, I forgot a channel.
But I really do need you to think about this: Most of us when we listen to music listen at approximately 80 db/spl at the listening position. You concentrate it to two speakers for stereo and divide it up between 5.1 speakers for surround. So your average power and peak power(with the possible exception of the center channel) will be lower per channel. Or think of it this way: your dividing up the same amount of power between more speakers.
Are you with me?
d.b.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Your right, I forgot a channel.
But I really do need you to think about this: Most of us when we listen to music listen at approximately 80 db/spl at the listening position. You concentrate it to two speakers for stereo and divide it up between 5.1 speakers for surround. So your average power and peak power(with the possible exception of the center channel) will be lower per channel. Or think of it this way: your dividing up the same amount of power between more speakers.
Are you with me?
d.b.

There is nothing to think about, and I am not with you. Pg. 80 in the Denon manual states that in 5CH/7CH STEREO mode: "the front left channel signals are output to the surround and surround back signal left channels, the front right channel signals are output to the surround and surround back signal right channels, and the in-phase component of the left and right channels is output to the center front and center rear channel(s). Do you not see how that places more demand on the receiver. All signals are devided up evenly, not simulated in a dsp mode. The drain on your amplifier will be much higher at higher listening levels. Some of us have larger great rooms that extend into other rooms. Mine is 18 x 32 and my Polks run at 89db. I understand your point that the power is divided up, but your earlier quote about the THX lab report didn't address the 5/7 channel stereo mode. All channels driven is not a farce when tested using this listening mode. I have to believe some amplifiers will perform better when trying to drive 7 speakers than others, compared to 2 speakers in two channel stereo mode. Gene said it himself "some companies design their amps to be more dynamic when one or two channels are driven while others tend to design for less power but the ability of driving more of the channels at that rated power." Some publications use the test while others do not. One extra test shouldn't negate the entire review of credibility. SoundandVision's 1 channel tests were right on the money with the Audioholic reviews. It's just a matter of opinion, and some of us are more hard headed than others. Just ask my wife.

 

[gene]

your dividing up the same amount of power between more speakers.

Dan while you are dividing up power between speakers lets also not forget the UL derating of 15amps for the power receptacles of consumer gear.

Line Voltage: 120V
Max Line Current:15A
Total Power Available: 1800watts
Typical Class A/B Eff: 0.4

Max Power Delivery: 720watts

Thus amps claiming 200wpc x 7 all channels don’t have a prayer of delivering anything more than about 100wpc under such a condition if they only have one line cord and follow the UL derating guidelines.

Even if the consumer runs a 20A dedicated line, the receptacle on the electronics is still limited to 15A. So a more powerful amp of same classification doesn't buy you much for doing better on the "all channels driven test".

But lets not cloud the issues with facts. The All Channels Driven Test is realistic, right ?

 

[Dan Banquer]

Denon 5805

O.K. Buckeye: Are you using bass management? if not than I can understand the power drain on your receiver, because I was referring to having the powered subwoofer as the only bass. The second issue is you are driving a very large room, and much larger than average. What are your average listening levels? Are they 80 db/spl or are they a whole lot higher for party mode? How much power do you think you can get from a HT Class AB amp? Well that's covered by Gene's most recent post. Are you with me now? Can you answer some of my questions?
d.b.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Which ones cannot outperform?

Well if you seriously desire to have 170 avaiable watts to each of 10 channels at once, you are not going to find any AVR at any price to do that, I doubt you'll even find a dedicated multichannel amp, you'll have to move right to monoblocks (or five very beefy stereo amps).

When will the need be there to outperform in all channels at the same instant???

Thats upto the owner I suppose, But I'm guessing "rarely if ever".

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

O.K. Buckeye: Are you using bass management? if not than I can understand the power drain on your receiver, because I was referring to having the powered subwoofer as the only bass. The second issue is you are driving a very large room, and much larger than average. What are your average listening levels? Are they 80 db/spl or are they a whole lot higher for party mode? How much power do you think you can get from a HT Class AB amp? Well that's covered by Gene's most recent post. Are you with me now? Can you answer some of my questions?
d.b.

Dan,
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Some days I'll run the receiver for hours while I'm in another room at very loud levels. Depends on what type of music I'm listening to. Soundgarden sounds better with bass management. A lot of my jazz and bluegrass doesn't. That was the reason for the cpu fan installation. Regarding power, it all depends on the efficiency of your speakers. When you are running 7 Polks at 89db, it sure makes it a lot nicer to run the Denon 3805 as apposed to a Denon 1705, wouldn't you agree? Guys say there isn't much difference between 75wpc and 120wpc. Run these multichannel amps for 5 hours at frat party levels and see which goes first. Running 2 speakers vs 7 speakers requires more heat sinks to dispurse heat, or an additional mode of cooling. Denons run hot, and when equipment runs hot, it may decrease the life of the unit. 80dB with Klipsch or Cerwin Vegas is a heck of a lot easier on a receiver than Polks, or even worse, Maggies.

 

[shokhead]

I've run my little old 2805 in 5 channel stereo at 85-90db at least for hours. Reciecer get as warm as it does after a 2 hour movie,no problem.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Another point, the list price of the AVR7300 is much higher than 1,400. So the difference is not 4,600.

What's the list price???

 

[PENG]

What's the list price???

I just find out from their website, MSRP(U.S.)2,399 to buy on line.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I just find out from their website, MSRP(U.S.)2,399 to buy on line.

Was mentioned on thread #25. I still think that's the best deal ($1299) out there for a receiver right now.

 

[PENG]

You're right, I was going to search your answer, then I thought it was quicker to go to the website now that this thread has got so long . FYI, the MRSP is the price we, on this side of the border has to pay for HK products. I don't understand why, we get discounted price for Yamaha, Marantz, Denon and others, but not H.K.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

You're right, I was going to search your answer, then I thought it was quicker to go to the website now that this thread has got so long . FYI, the MRSP is the price we, on this side of the border has to pay for HK products. I don't understand why, we get discounted price for Yamaha, Marantz, Denon and others, but not H.K.

Even if you order online at www.jr.com and have it shipped? That seems unrealistic. I know shipping charges are high across the border, but msrp? Yikes. Why not have a member purchase one down here and ship it to you? For a small fee, say $50 - $100 for their time, it's still worth the savings. And if given as a "gift", I'm pretty sure the warranty transfers as long as you notify HK within 30 days.

 

[PENG]

BuckEyeFan 1:

It was last fall when I wanted the 7200. I tried everything, including calling the distributor in Montreal, HK in the U.S. etc., and asked about how the warranty would work if I went the route as you suggested. I was told, in no uncertainty term that the only way to get warranty is to send it back to the states. No Canadian warranty whatsoever, unless the product is purchased in Canada. Then the 3805 showed up, with features such as PL2X, HDCD, Dlink and a nice looking front end, so I gave up on the 7200.

Like you, I still think the AVR7300 has no match at its price point, but I am gradually becoming a proud owner of the 3805 because of its honest/neutral sound and decent power output, at a reasonable price.

By the way, I understand your point about 5/7CH stereo, but I found that with more speakers it filled the room up with sound, and definitely felt louder. Whenever I listened in 7CH stereo I had to turned the volume down by at least 3 dB. So to me, it doesn't mean you need that much more all channel driven power even if you use the 7CH ST mode. Did you not experience the same, or it is more because you have a large room? Just curious...........

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

That absolutely stinks about how HK treats the border issue. I think they are losing tons of business by going that route.

I have read the 7300 was a nightmare of processors, and the memory was second rate when switching back and forth between sources, so I too am pleased with my Denon purchase.

My biggest hang up are my speakers. Polk's are so inneficient, you can definitely tell when they strap an amp. Running my front's, the Denon has little trouble. Running all 7, be it with or without the sub, it gets too hot to the touch. Yes, you can fry and egg on the metal. There is definitely a difference running 7 as opposed to 2 - I'll argue that all day long. You can tell I'm a big proponent of efficient speakers on earlier posts. I do play my music loud, so I am probably one of the few that demand just about all my Denon puts out. It also depends on the music you listen to. Classical is extremely hard on amps, with huge bursts of power needed here and there. The Polks do an awesome job at high dB levels, but they absolutely embarass weaker receivers when pushed. I had a Sony STR DE 925 (the top of the line at the time) which was 110x5, and it just couldn't hang with the new Polks. That was when my search for a strong receiver started. The HK's were a top pick. I was extremely close to purchasing the HK DPR2005 120x7 digital receiver due to its non existant heat issues, until I called HK directly and asked them their opinion about the 2005 vs the 7300. They said there is no comparison, to go with the 7300 for sound and video upconversion. I have a digital sub amp in my truck, and they do stay cool - but have read they are really only good for subs because of the distortion. I guess that's why HK's digital receivers haven't really taken off. To Denon's credit, it has no problem dealing with these 7 Polk "sponges" of mine. Yes, the room size has a lot to do with it, but also the efficiency issue is much of the problem.