Denon 4311ci vs Marantz AV7701/7005

[Braddock]

Im in a buyers debacle. No matter how much research I do, I still can not come to a decision on what to upgrade to. Where I get confused is with the Denon 4311. Its all the rave in online communities right now. It sports an all preamp mode and has XT32. Why would you want an all preamp mode if youre buying an A/V receiver? The whole point of seperates is better quality internal parts due to the lack of amps. Am I wrong in assuming this? If I use the Denon as my preamp with outboard amplification, can I still quickly swith back to normal mode to listen to zones 2 and 3 which are powered by the 4311's amps? If I buy the Marantz, then to use zones 2 and 3 I need yet another amp to power them, so it would stand to reason that the more economical avenue would be the 4311. But, am I sacrificing SQ by going with an A/V receiver instead of an A/V prepro? Any input would be great, thanks!

 

[PENG]

But, am I sacrificing SQ by going with an A/V receiver instead of an A/V prepro? Any input would be great, thanks!

Like most other forums, this is a controversial topic that get asked often but will invariably yield opinions that may range from a definite no to definite yes and anywhere in between. Some would make their opinions sound like statement of facts too, that there is no place for AVRs when it comes to SQ, and that separate is the only way to go. For me, I can only tell you that every time I compared a high quality recording to one that is of average quality, I immediately heard major difference such as much higher level of transparency, crystal clear details, better transients, clearer and punchier bass, smoother strings especially violins, more airy brass etc. I also heard similar SQ improvements when I listened to more accurate speakers, yet I heard no improvements whatsoever upgrading from my last AVRs to my current AV7005 based separate system. I do expect that overall, separates are better on paper, and should in general (not always), do better on the test bench. The issue is, whether such differences are translated into differences that are perceivable by most people. Given the right combination of equipment and acoustic environment, I believe some people may be able to hear the resulting difference in SQ, but I absolutely don't believe claims of day and night kind of difference unless their day and night means between 9:00 pm and midnight in the middle of the winter in Canada or further north.

If you don’t own any amps yet, I strong suggest you take a good look at the 4520. The 4520 has impressive specs and feature set. It would have been my top choice for upgrade, but I have invested in too many amps now to turn the clock back.

 

[Braddock]

Yeh, Ive already got my amp. I think Im just gonna go with a prepro off of Audiogon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I also see no significant difference in SQ between AVR & pre-pro & preamp & amp.

 

[PENG]

I also see no significant difference in SQ between AVR & pre-pro & preamp & amp.

You are I have both gone down that prepro+amp path, found no SQ gains so we are comfortable to go either way down the road. For those who have not tried it, they are going to have to find out for themselves. We have seen similar questions being asked regularly don't we? In the end most of them would go the separate way so I learnt that when they ask the question, their minds are all but made up, again, I mean in most cases, obvious a few would in fact go the AVR way.

 

[Alex2507]

they are going to have to find out for themselves.

That's exactly what I heard the owner of a Hephaestus amp say after demoing it in front of a DIY speaker crowd about people like you guys. It's funny because the exact same phrase was used to support the exact opposite point of view ... so both sides must be right!

 

[PENG]

That's exactly what I heard the owner of a Hephaestus amp say after demoing it in front of a DIY speaker crowd about people like you guys. It's funny because the exact same phrase was used to support the exact opposite point of view ... so both sides must be right!

I know that too, but I must say intially I also thought there would be some sonic improvements. I actually felt that about my BDP-105 (from the 95) recently, but only until I have more time to play some of the high quality source that I am very familiar with, then the perceived improvements quickly evaporated. I am quite sure most people will perceive some improvements going from AVR to a nice separates setup, due to the well known Placebo effect. Another main reason could be that after an upgrade, people (I for sure) tend to play their best source, be it there favorite SACD, CD, Flac on USB or whatever, and guess what, the quality of the source really makes the biggest difference (caution: only for people who own something like Salk ST as minimum), follow by speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are I have both gone down that prepro+amp path, found no SQ gains so we are comfortable to go either way down the road. For those who have not tried it, they are going to have to find out for themselves. We have seen similar questions being asked regularly don't we? In the end most of them would go the separate way so I learnt that when they ask the question, their minds are all but made up, again, I mean in most cases, obvious a few would in fact go the AVR way.

Well, all I can say is that they just need to believe us because we are so right and they are so dead wrong.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For those thinking going separate pre-pro + amp, they should realize the possible issue of annoying ground hum noise.

 

[Alex2507]

Along with the SongTowers came an Aragon 2007 amplifier that is going to rock the house after I go find my bottle of glue to install the baseboards with. Am I going to hear a difference? If I wasn't going to hear a difference I would just nail the baseboards on but the glue will help integrate the bass with the base.

Good day, gentlemen.
I am going to turn off this black hole of a computer so that I can move on already.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Along with the SongTowers came an Aragon 2007 amplifier that is going to rock the house after I go find my bottle of glue to install the baseboards with. Am I going to hear a difference? If I wasn't going to hear a difference I would just nail the baseboards on but the glue will help integrate the bass with the base.

Good day, gentlemen.
I am going to turn off this black hole of a computer so that I can move on already.

My screen name "Acu" comes from Acurus/Aragon, so I do have a soft spot for anything Acurus & Aragon.

 

[Irvrobinson]

My screen name "Acu" comes from Acurus/Aragon, so I do have a soft spot for anything Acurus & Aragon.

Ah, I feel like Paul Harvey just spoke. I always wondered how you came up with that name. Now I know the rest of the story.

 

[slipperybidness]

For those thinking going separate pre-pro + amp, they should realize the possible issue of annoying ground hum noise.

Now that is a real-world possibility for concern. Sometimes you find you just need to leave well-enough alone.

 

[Braddock]

Thanks for all of yalls input. With all thats been said, I really should go for the Denon 4311ci and couple it with my Emotiva XPA5. If I get a prepro, I have to get more amps to power the other zones, so the Denon is the obvious choice. Right now, I have the XPA5 hooked up to my old Onkyo SRTX706 in 2 channel Pure audio mode with a pair of Infinity Beta 50s. Having never owned an amp before, Im very satisfied. I think the Infinity Beta series will do for my HT, but Im definietly gonna need something bettter for my 2 channel music mode. The Beta 50s soound loads better that they did, but not as good as my GF's B&W 804s and Krell/Theta combo. Im finally coming to the conclusion that the reason Ive been disatisfied all these years is because it wasnt the receivers, but rather the speakers. You really have to throw down some bucks for good speakers to get the sound you strive for.

 

[Alex2507]

You really have to throw down some bucks for good speakers to get the sound you strive for.

Ain't that the truth. All the other stuff is nice to play with but when it comes to listening it always comes to the speaker. I've always wanted to hear the Beta 50s and the matching center whatever it was. I think mikec still runs those. I've heard the B&W 804s and preferred them over Sig6s but they were in different rooms. Can't wait to see what you get.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for all of yalls input. With all thats been said, I really should go for the Denon 4311ci and couple it with my Emotiva XPA5. If I get a prepro, I have to get more amps to power the other zones, so the Denon is the obvious choice. Right now, I have the XPA5 hooked up to my old Onkyo SRTX706 in 2 channel Pure audio mode with a pair of Infinity Beta 50s. Having never owned an amp before, Im very satisfied. I think the Infinity Beta series will do for my HT, but Im definietly gonna need something bettter for my 2 channel music mode. The Beta 50s soound loads better that they did, but not as good as my GF's B&W 804s and Krell/Theta combo. Im finally coming to the conclusion that the reason Ive been disatisfied all these years is because it wasnt the receivers, but rather the speakers. You really have to throw down some bucks for good speakers to get the sound you strive for.

For around 3K, the 804S is hard to beat.

 

[Braddock]

Got a guy in town with a pair for $2500 (2001 models) on Craigslist. I wont pay that, but would pay $2k if he'll take it. The Beta 50s sound like any very good consumer grade speakers, but lack the clarity and separation of the individual instruments of much better speakers.

 

[cpp]

Well, all I can say is that they just need to believe us because we are so right and they are so dead wrong.

there ya go, making comments without first taking your meds.....

Back on topic, buy a 4311 as you won't notice any difference at all between it and the 4520. I own a 4311ci but 3 weeks ago I ordered a 4520 just to compare. Sent the 4520 back, I just could not tell any difference at all and/or didn't need some of the new features offered like 4k.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

there ya go, making comments without first taking your meds.....

Back on topic, buy a 4311 as you won't notice any difference at all between it and the 4520. I own a 4311ci but 3 weeks ago I ordered a 4520 just to compare. Sent the 4520 back, I just could not tell any difference at all and/or didn't need some of the new features offered like 4k.

Look who's talking about taking meds first!

We could have told you there is no difference between the 4311 vs 4520. I can't even tell the difference between the AVP-A1HDCI vs 3312.

But you just had to see for yourself, didn't you? Just couldn't resist.

 

[cpp]

Look who's talking about taking meds first!

We could have told you there is no difference between the 4311 vs 4520. I can't even tell the difference between the AVP-A1HDCI vs 3312.

But you just had to see for yourself, didn't you? Just couldn't resist.

Ya got me on the meds. After the knee surgery a week ago still on inflammatory meds, but I do miss those pain meds

Couldn't resist, but the only difference I found between the two Denon's was on the shipping as in shipping the 4520 back. My CC got credited back asap and if I would have heard something my golfing bud wanted to buy my 4311ci, but it was a no go.


PS: As far as listening test, and this I can actually prove, when taking pain meds, you can for fact hear a difference in your speakers, amps, cables, music, room and wife. The changes are constant but not ever lasting...