Denon 1912 Settings!!!

[caissuper]

i am a newbie to Receivers and home theater; i know some of my friends say i should have gone with htib but i do not regret the move though..
i get good (know its subjective!) sound but is this all? may be i had my expectation high? Especially with the subwoofer!

tried with both Velodyne and Polk

i have a room of 10ft X 20ft (filled with furniture)
Receiver: Denon 1912
Front speaker Pair: Polk Tsi 100
Center Speaker: Polk CS10
Surround/Rear Speakers: Polk RTi A1
Subwoofer: Polk psw 225i (earlier)/Velodyne Impact mini (present)

distance from viewing position to speakers:
center/front: around 9ft
rear: round 7 ft
subwoofer: 9ft (denon audyssey setup always detected 27ft; which i think even manual said it may detect farther than actually it is! dont know why though). i m not looking for sub-woofer to be like windows rattling sound or have my apartment neighbor jump out of his couch but decent bass which i do not even feel it even when i stand beside it... i initially thought the wireless Polk subwoofer was not working properly and exchanged it for Velodyne after reading reviews that it has such a bass that it can even
make your neighbor complain! it could be that it is a user error; that's me : )

i have read a lot of reviews and settings on the web and couldn't conclude one way of doing things but not sure if i finally settled with the "right" settings...
its been more than a week and i haven't yet even tried half of Denons options!

i have MultiEQ set to Audyssey
Dynamic EQ ON
reference offset 0 db
Dyamic Volume: day
Audio delay: 0ms

i had Audyssey run but didnt like the sound after the setup was done so changed as below:
channel level:
front:3.5db
center: 4.5db
subwoofer: 5db
surround L/R: 10db
surround mode for movie/music: dolby PLII (tried other ones too)
amp assign: normal
cable used: monster cable

speaker config: small

bass setting: subwoofer mode: LFE (i have tried both the settings of cross over freq and phase on the subwoofer at varying positions and physical location of subwoofer)
LPF for LFE: 90hz
cross over freq: front/60hz, center/40hz, srround/60hz
volume limit: off


audio sources tested: mp3 cd, tv audio out connected through optical, blueray disc played on ps3 connected through A/V
tv: Samsung UN46C6500 (receiver output connected to TV through HDMI)

firstly, thanks for reading this... it is a long post but i am getting frustrated a little bit now that i cant make it work...(do not know if that is the case or like i said just need to set my expectation right)...
Thanks for any help!

 

[Pyrrho]

There are quite a few things to say. First of all, it is odd to use your best speakers for surround instead of up front. I understand the idea of voice matching the center to the front speakers, but I would switch the front and rear speakers.

Second, what did you dislike about about the setup from running Audyssey?

As for the distance to the subwoofer, you can manually correct that.

Regarding the levels you set, we have absolutely no way of knowing if you set that decently or not, and unless you used a sound level meter and test tones, you don't know if it is set right either. Most likely, Audyssey set the levels correctly.

You should probably set all of your crossover frequencies for your front, center, and surround speakers to 80 Hz. It should be set above the -3dB point of your speakers.

In your receiver, your speakers should be set to "small" (not "large") and you should make sure your subwoofer output is set to "on".


Your subwoofer is not a very good one. Read some of the reviews of subwoofers at this site to get an idea of what is needed to shake your room well. It will cost you more than you paid for that Velodyne to get a good one. If you are going to use the one you have, put it in a corner to maximize output.

You state:

"blueray disc played on ps3 connected through A/V"

I do not know what you mean. It should be hooked up via HDMI to get the full audio benefits of Bluray.

If you can return it for a refund, return the Monster cable. It is overpriced. Read these:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests

 

[highfigh]

i am a newbie to Receivers and home theater; i know some of my friends say i should have gone with htib but i do not regret the move though..
i get good (know its subjective!) sound but is this all? may be i had my expectation high? Especially with the subwoofer!

tried with both Velodyne and Polk

i have a room of 10ft X 20ft (filled with furniture)
Receiver: Denon 1912
Front speaker Pair: Polk Tsi 100
Center Speaker: Polk CS10
Surround/Rear Speakers: Polk RTi A1
Subwoofer: Polk psw 225i (earlier)/Velodyne Impact mini (present)

distance from viewing position to speakers:
center/front: around 9ft
rear: round 7 ft
subwoofer: 9ft (denon audyssey setup always detected 27ft; which i think even manual said it may detect farther than actually it is! dont know why though). i m not looking for sub-woofer to be like windows rattling sound or have my apartment neighbor jump out of his couch but decent bass which i do not even feel it even when i stand beside it... i initially thought the wireless Polk subwoofer was not working properly and exchanged it for Velodyne after reading reviews that it has such a bass that it can even
make your neighbor complain! it could be that it is a user error; that's me : )

i have read a lot of reviews and settings on the web and couldn't conclude one way of doing things but not sure if i finally settled with the "right" settings...
its been more than a week and i haven't yet even tried half of Denons options!

i have MultiEQ set to Audyssey
Dynamic EQ ON
reference offset 0 db
Dyamic Volume: day
Audio delay: 0ms

i had Audyssey run but didnt like the sound after the setup was done so changed as below:
channel level:
front:3.5db
center: 4.5db
subwoofer: 5db
surround L/R: 10db
surround mode for movie/music: dolby PLII (tried other ones too)
amp assign: normal
cable used: monster cable

speaker config: small

bass setting: subwoofer mode: LFE (i have tried both the settings of cross over freq and phase on the subwoofer at varying positions and physical location of subwoofer)
LPF for LFE: 90hz
cross over freq: front/60hz, center/40hz, srround/60hz
volume limit: off


audio sources tested: mp3 cd, tv audio out connected through optical, blueray disc played on ps3 connected through A/V
tv: Samsung UN46C6500 (receiver output connected to TV through HDMI)

firstly, thanks for reading this... it is a long post but i am getting frustrated a little bit now that i cant make it work...(do not know if that is the case or like i said just need to set my expectation right)...
Thanks for any help!

What was the audio level (SPL) when you ran Audyssey? Try running it again with Dynamic EQ off. Also, you need to set bass management to LFE+Main.

 

[zhimbo]

subwoofer: 9ft (denon audyssey setup always detected 27ft; which i think even manual said it may detect farther than actually it is! dont know why though).

I've heard two stories on this:

The increased distance is due to slight delays in signal processing to/by the subwoofer. Keep the distance as measured by the reciever, it will correct for the delays.

OR:

I've also heard that bass frequences are difficult for the receiver to measure, so you should correct it (as you did).


Does anyone have the final word on this?

 

[caissuper]

Thank You Pyrrho, highfigh and zhimbo!

Audyssey settings after switching front and rear speakers, moving subwoofer to a corner and setting Dyamnic EQ off and Dyamic Volume OFF

Sp. Config Check
Front: Large
Center: Small
Subwoofer: Yes
Surround: Small
S.Back: None

Distance Check is fine for all except subwoofer; changed it accordingly

Ch. Level Check
Front L: -1 db
Front R: +7 db
Center: -1 db
Surround L: -2db
Surround R: -0.5 db

Fader Front <> Rear

Crossover Check:
Front: Full Band
Center: 40hz
Surround: 60hz

Bass setting: LPF for LFE: 90hz

Pyrrho:
Done. Swtiched the speakers front vs. rear (it sounds better; i "hear" what you are saying)

After running Audyssey; even for similar speakers left and right front ones and similar viewing/hearing distance from the listener Audyssey assigned a different db; so at least from my very low or none experience i thought it wasn't right; something like this is possible and right?

Even when i corrected the sub-woofer setting of distance; it didnt sound great (had the subwoofer setting ON though). Looks

like have to go for another one; any specific suggestions for this combination of speakers/receivers (i will go through the forum)..

Now when i switched the speakers; it took the NEW front one as large after running Audyssey again!

cross over freq is set to 80hz on all.. sounds much better

"blueray disc played on ps3 connected through A/V"
i didnt have a HDMI cable so hooked up with existing cables to receiver (didnt realize this when i was at the store buying other stuff)... i shall go get one HDMI Cable..

too bad that i cant return the cable now.. as i have already opened it and cut it..

let me know if i should change that NEW front speakers to small

highfigh:
tried that sounds better with all the above now.. but wrt to Bass still below the level i was expecting.. looks like i need to change that sub

 

[MDS]

After running Audyssey; even for similar speakers left and right front ones and similar viewing/hearing distance from the listener Audyssey assigned a different db; so at least from my very low or none experience i thought it wasn't right; something like this is possible and right?

Yes, it is possible and Audyssey generally gets it right. The speakers may appear to be at a similar viewing/hearing distance but accoustically they aren't. Depending on placement and the acoustics of the room (affected by furniture and flooring and walls, etc) each speaker may need a slightly different setting on the channel trims. It is the same if you do it yourself with an SPL meter and the receiver's test tone. The goal is to get each channel at roughly the same output level and the actual numbers that achieve that goal are not important.

Now when i switched the speakers; it took the NEW front one as large after running Audyssey again!
.
.
let me know if i should change that NEW front speakers to small

Audyssey and most other auto setup routines will usually set the front speakers to Large (aka Full Band) and that is rarely ever the right choice. It does that because it trys to measure the low end frequency response and if it is below 80 Hz or so, it decides it is 'full range' enough - which it isn't.

Here are the options:

1. Front speakers set to Full Band or Large:
- If the subwoofer setting is set to 'subwoofer' then the front speakers will play full range and no bass from the front speakers will go to the sub.

- If the subwoofer setting is set to 'Double Bass'/'LFE+Main'/whatever your receiver calls it then the front speakers will play the full range AND bass below the xover point will go to the sub. This often results in boomy bass but some people like it. With that setting bass will definitely be more pronounced but not necessarily 'correct'.

2. Front speakers set to Small (assign them xover frequency):
All bass below the xover point will go to the sub. This is generally the best way to do things because the sub is better at reproducing low bass than the front speakers, even if the sub is small and not so great.

3. LFE always goes to the sub if subwoofer is set to 'on'. If subwoofer is not present LFE goes to the front speakers, in which case they MUST be set to Large/Full Band.

 

[Pyrrho]

Thank You Pyrrho, highfigh and zhimbo!

Audyssey settings after switching front and rear speakers, moving subwoofer to a corner and setting Dyamnic EQ off and Dyamic Volume OFF

Sp. Config Check
Front: Large
Center: Small
Subwoofer: Yes
Surround: Small
S.Back: None

Distance Check is fine for all except subwoofer; changed it accordingly

Ch. Level Check
Front L: -1 db
Front R: +7 db
Center: -1 db
Surround L: -2db
Surround R: -0.5 db

Fader Front <> Rear

Crossover Check:
Front: Full Band
Center: 40hz
Surround: 60hz

Bass setting: LPF for LFE: 90hz

Pyrrho:
Done. Swtiched the speakers front vs. rear (it sounds better; i "hear" what you are saying)

After running Audyssey; even for similar speakers left and right front ones and similar viewing/hearing distance from the listener Audyssey assigned a different db; so at least from my very low or none experience i thought it wasn't right; something like this is possible and right?

Yes, it is possible, though the numbers seem somewhat surprising for the right and left channels, if you have them placed symmetrically. When you listen to music, sitting in the center of your listening position, does the balance seem subjectively right (use a mono source, like AM radio)? If so, then trust Audyssey for this, as this is the sort of thing that automatic setups usually get right (unlike crossover frequencies).

If it subjectively sounds way off, try doing the setup again, being careful to follow directions for microphone placement as well as other aspects of the automatic setup process.

Even when i corrected the sub-woofer setting of distance; it didnt sound great (had the subwoofer setting ON though). Looks

like have to go for another one; any specific suggestions for this combination of speakers/receivers (i will go through the forum)..

Now when i switched the speakers; it took the NEW front one as large after running Audyssey again!

cross over freq is set to 80hz on all.. sounds much better

"blueray disc played on ps3 connected through A/V"
i didnt have a HDMI cable so hooked up with existing cables to receiver (didnt realize this when i was at the store buying other stuff)... i shall go get one HDMI Cable..

too bad that i cant return the cable now.. as i have already opened it and cut it..

let me know if i should change that NEW front speakers to small

highfigh:
tried that sounds better with all the above now.. but wrt to Bass still below the level i was expecting.. looks like i need to change that sub

Yes, set the front speakers to small. Their -3dB point is 60Hz. So a crossover frequency of 80Hz should work well with them, and allow them to play louder without distorting.

As for the LPF for LFE setting, I believe you should have that set to 120Hz, which appears to be the default setting (it is underlined on page 84 of your manual), as that is the upper frequency limit of the standard LFE channel. Your manual is less than clear about what happens to the bass information that is in the LFE that you do not direct to the subwoofer, so I would set this at 120Hz and try it that way.

Like most manuals, yours will require that you spend a good amount of quality time with it in order to get the most out of your receiver.

 

[anamorphic96]

Not sure if the OP has read this but it should answer many questions.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/faq

 

[Gustavo]

LPF and LFE

What was the audio level (SPL) when you ran Audyssey? Try running it again with Dynamic EQ off. Also, you need to set bass management to LFE+Main.

Really? Audyssey is of a different opinion:

"It is not a good idea to use the LFE+Main mode. That mode sends the bass to both the subs and the speakers and often leads to improper responses in the overlap region. We recommend to always set the subs in LFE mode in the pre-pro or AVR."

x x x x​

"First let's start with the simple stuff: the LPF of the LFE should ALWAYS be set to 120 Hz in the AVR. Content in the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content is authored up to 120 Hz. Any other setting is just plain wrong. Unfortunately many in the industry (including the AVR makers themselves) don't fully understand this setting. Frankly, it should not even be an adjustable setting at all. It has nothing to do with bass management..."

Quoted from
http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/76175-subwoofer-setup-and-multeq

Is it not possible that the set up is not sounding right because the OP is using stereo interconnects instead of HDMI? I mean, is it right to expect bass management to function correctly when only analog L/R interconnects are connected from source to receiver?

 

[highfigh]

highfigh:
tried that sounds better with all the above now.. but wrt to Bass still below the level i was expecting.. looks like i need to change that sub

Run it again and leave all of the settings as they come, then decide. I have an AVR-990 and have played with the sub/speaker distance settings extensively- small changes make a difference and to make finer adjustments possible, I set the speaker distance farther than they are, then worked with the sub distance, so it sounds better. I used my ears and my RTA software to see the changes as they happened- somehow, my thinking that it sounded better coincided with the RTA showing a (smoother, flatter response).

Bass level is often perceived as "lacking" when hearing a "correct" frequency response. Most bars, cars and home theaters have the bass cranked up higher than it was meant to be and is far different from the way it was mixed. Don't listen for spectacular bass, listen for smooth bass response. Also, move around the room- the bass response will change as you go.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

Is it not possible that the set up is not sounding right because the OP is using stereo interconnects instead of HDMI? I mean, is it right to expect bass management to function correctly when only analog L/R interconnects are connected from source to receiver?

Bass management should work will all inputs, not just HDMI. Some receivers bypass bass management and processing when using the multichannel analog inputs, but it should work with every other input, including the built-in tuner.

So, it is right to expect bass management to work when only analog L/R interconnects are connected from source to receiver.

Indeed, it would be a poorly designed piece of equipment otherwise, as the bass management is primarily about what the speakers can do, and is not primarily a source issue at all.


The subwoofer in question is rated only down to 38Hz @ -3dB. That would not be too bad for a tower speaker, but it is dreadful for a subwoofer. I would do without a subwoofer rather than have one like that, and wait until I could afford something decent (which typically starts at about $500 or so, buying online factory direct; much more at marked up retail store prices). But, of course, 38Hz is still better than the 60Hz of the main speakers, so it isn't totally useless either.

 

[Cruise Missile]

Don't listen for spectacular bass, listen for smooth bass response.

Which, when it's smooth, is spectacular!

Getting the bass right was the hardest part with our system. However, it made the second largest overall improvement to my system therefore it was well worth the effort and expense.

Read the subwoofer set up and placement guides on audioholics. Then read 'em again. A great sub in the wrong spot in your room can be worse than no sub at all!

 

[GranteedEV]

Most bars, cars and home theaters have the bass cranked up higher than it was meant to be and is far different from the way it was mixed. Don't listen for spectacular bass, listen for smooth bass response.

+10

Real bass, and what people think is bass, are never the same.

 

[caissuper]

Hi guys, sorry that i could not reply soon. thanks for all the inputs..
I tried to connect the PS3 to Denon1912 with HDMI (Game1 HDMI pin) but for some reason the sound comes breaking every other minute...
(i shall connect PS3 HDMI to TV directly and check if it is doing same thing; if so, i might attribute it to bad cable OR worst.. HDMI output in my less than one year old PS3 has gone bad without even using it ever!...)

And also with the new settings now.. when i MUTE TV and play TV on receiver+speakers it is good but when i play with TV speakers +Receiver + Polk speakers; i hear very low on the receiver speakers when compared to the TV. To hear decently on polk speakers TV sound is way too loud!