Define the negative-zero dB amplitude scale?

Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Can anyone provide a definitive answer as to the origin and meaning of the volume/amplitude scale currently used by perhaps all modern A/V receivers? (No speculating please, unless you have a good joke answer. :))

I'm certain there must be a logical reason that this scaling system has been adopted. This feels like a simple-minded, noob question, but dang if I can find anyone, including receiver tech support people (no surprise there), who know why and what it means.

I have seen that Denon almost answers the question when the website FAQ's show their receivers reaching 0 dB on the scale in a receiver comparison matrix...where each receiver reaches its maximum spec'ed wattage output.

My Yamaha people and manuals say nothing about the matter, except that it's "a more accurate representation of volume". I've had others tell me that there is no standard and that comparisons between models, manufacturers, etc. are meaningless...that it's just an arbitrary scale. If it's so arbitrary, why has everyone adopted it? Why does 'mute' begin at -80? (Please note that as a separate issue, Yamaha's new receivers have adjustable min-max volume settings. Default setting is -80 to +17. Plus 17? :confused:)

The reason I ask this is that I must play my new, slightly more powerful RX-A3010, at 4 or 5 dB higher on its amplitude scale than I did with my old RX-V2500. The 3010 is only a trivial 20 watt power improvement, but why the necessary volume increase adjustment required for the new unit? Measured by meter, same scenes, same music cuts, and identical test signals require an average of 4.5 dB higher setting on the RX-A3010...although nothing has changed EXCEPT the receiver and the interconnect (coax in the 2500 to HDMI in the 3010). I guess it's possible that there is some signal loss due to the HDMI cable...but I find that as illogical as the rest of the solutions to this issue that I've heard.

SO...anyone know what the real deal is with the receiver, and I presume pre-pro amplitude settings? (I was perfectly happy with the old 0-10 scale, btw...mute to max. :D) Inquiring minds want to know.

PS: For giggles I'm going to install a more expensive (better?) HDMI cable this weekend. If that improves the output on the 3010, it's gonna change my entire outlook on cables...and I'd really hate that. :eek: (I doubt I'll see any volume increase.)
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
My ADD prevented me from fully understanding the question to which the answer may lie in this MDS post that I also didn't fully understand but it may work for you.

... what were we talking about? :D
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Yep, yep. That's the stuff. :)

Did you run YPAO on both receivers?
Wow, that's like a swish from half court. The rec'r in the LR is an old Onkyo. No YPAO out there but have some sub EQ'ing. In here it took a while but I got YPAO done on that 2600 which doesn't have any adjustments below like 62 Hz (?) ... but I digest.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
It just had to be MDS with the thorough description. Thanks, MDS!

And thanks for the tip, Alex...my search didn't turn it up. Swishing, eh? ;)

Adam, yep, YPAO was run on both. Pure direct also with no change from described issue.

Okay, so now I think I know that both Yammie models have a relative scaling system and to reach reference level, I MUST USE MORE OF THE 3010's RELATIVE POWER to reach that level. Back to my second question that still puzzles my addled brain...why does a more powerful Rx require more relative power to run the same audio system? HDMI vs. coax? Bad amplifiers? Cheap cable? Dumbo owner?
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Do you know if the reference level is the same between the two receivers? You could check that with an SPL meter, but it would take time and effort to connect both up and run the test tones. Uggg. Effort. I say grab a drink and enjoy a movie. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
The reason I ask this is that I must play my new, slightly more powerful RX-A3010, at 4 or 5 dB higher on its amplitude scale than I did with my old RX-V2500. The 3010 is only a trivial 20 watt power improvement, but why the necessary volume increase adjustment required for the new unit? Measured by meter, same scenes, same music cuts, and identical test signals require an average of 4.5 dB higher setting on the RX-A3010...although nothing has changed EXCEPT the receiver and the interconnect (coax in the 2500 to HDMI in the 3010). I guess it's possible that there is some signal loss due to the HDMI cable...but I find that as illogical as the rest of the solutions to this issue that I've heard.

SO...anyone know what the real deal is with the receiver, and I presume pre-pro amplitude settings? (I was perfectly happy with the old 0-10 scale, btw...mute to max. :D) Inquiring minds want to know.

PS: For giggles I'm going to install a more expensive (better?) HDMI cable this weekend. If that improves the output on the 3010, it's gonna change my entire outlook on cables...and I'd really hate that. :eek: (I doubt I'll see any volume increase.)
The difference in the volume setting is due to the different gains of amps or amps in receivers.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
The difference in the volume setting is due to the different gains of amps or amps in receivers.
Would you mind elaborating a bit on your statement and how it explains the requirement of the more powerful Rx to display a higher volume setting to reach an equivalent system spl?
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Do you know if the reference level is the same between the two receivers? You could check that with an SPL meter, but it would take time and effort to connect both up and run the test tones. Uggg. Effort. I say grab a drink and enjoy a movie. :D
I don't know that...just assume it to be so, Adam.

I have an interesting dilemma. The 2500 automatically sets the test tones to 75 dB. With the 3010, I must set the volume trim when running the test tones...in this case it must be set to 0 to reach 75 dB. Hmmmm.

When I run a Video Essentials test tone, I need to keep the gain cranked up the usual 4-5 dB on the 3010.

By the way, the YPAO setup puts all the speakers at roughly at the same level on both receivers.

It's so easy to be confused at my age......
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I'm sorry I don't have a joke or a funny answer.

My understanding is that it was introduced by a bunch of married guys.
The sliding negative scale correlates to the amount of sex a married man has after being married five or more years.
Oh, wait.....isn't that what you were talking about?:confused:
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I'm sorry I don't have a joke or a funny answer.

My understanding is that it was introduced by a bunch of married guys.
The sliding negative scale correlates to the amount of sex a married man has after being married five or more years.
Oh, wait.....isn't that what you were talking about?:confused:
:eek: You means it's less after you get married? Oh, great...
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Apparently, my brand of humor is frowned upon in this establishment.




:D
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Apparently, my brand of humor is frowned upon in this establishment. :D
There's nothing funny about not getting any ... ask Adam. :eek: :D


... but this still deserves answering before we further derail RJ's thread.

Would you mind elaborating a bit on your statement and how it explains the requirement of the more powerful Rx to display a higher volume setting to reach an equivalent system spl?
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top