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chefp2010

Enthusiast
I recently upgraded some of my gear and a little confused with some of the literature that I have read and am wondering on what I should set my crossovers at and if I can set the speakers I have hooked up to my separate amp + or - how many db maybe I'm wrong in how I'm explains but overall I'm trying to achieve the best sound with the gear I have....Thx ahead of time for any help....

Preamp.....Denon 3313ci
External Amp....Emotiva Xpa 3
Front/Right....Definitive Tech Bp7002
Sub...Lfm 1
Surrounds....Definitive Tech Sr 8040hd
Center...Definitive Tech 8040hd
Front Wide.....Energy cb 10
Rear surround... Klipsch 14
Bluray.........Pioneer Bdp62fd
Cd Player.... Marantz Cd5001
Power Condition....... Panama M4300 Pm
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Why not just use your Denon's Audyssey XT to configure all that? That'd be the easiest thing.

If you prefer manual setup, for the high pass filters just look at the specs for frequency response for each speaker. Take the low number and round up to the next multiple of 20. For the low pass filter for your sub, try it at 100 and adjust as needed.

If you refuse to use Audyssey to set channel volumes and distances, you probably ought to consider getting a cheap spl meter from Radio Shack. Measure the dB of pink noise from each speaker from your primary listening position, and nudge the volume of each channel up or down until they're all the same on the meter.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk 2
 
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herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Your Denon's Audyssey will detect the distance of each speaker from your listening area(s), and adjust itself for that. But mine set all my speakers to "large". I manually changed them to "small" because I have a good subwoofer to handle the very low bass.

For the crossover, it depends entirely on your speakers. My speaker manufacturer suggests 80Hz, so I started there. Changes from the mfg recommendation should probably be done only if you notice a problem.

For dB, (which is volume), it is entirely up to you. Audyssey will set the volume of each channel to give what it thinks is balanced. But your preference may differ for various reasons... (maybe your wife's chair is close to one of the surrounds and she says it is too loud... so you turn it down).

So I would:
1) Run Audyssey, following the directions as closely as possible
2) Manually change all speakers to "small", and be sure your sub is set correctly (LFE + Main)
3) Manually set speaker crossovers as per mfg recommendation
4) Manually adjust individual speaker volume to your taste

But that's just what I would do. :)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I agree with herbu. Auto-EQ may not make the correct settings, so run Audessey once and see what it does.
 
D

Dargent0628

Junior Audioholic
"Manually change all speakers to "small", and be sure your sub is set correctly (LFE + Main)"

Oh my I had always thought that the correct setting was just LFE (scurrying to my system to change the settings...!)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
LFE + main is NOT the correct setting IMO. That will send bass to the mains AND the sub, which is not the desired setting in most cases. In fact, this setting should not even be available when the speakers are set to small.

I am also working on my set up... And my speakers have two crossvover specs:

P442 On-Wall Speaker | Home Audio | Boston Acoustics US

500Hz & 2.8kHz ...

And my Yamaha RX-V675 YPAO auto set up throws 120Kz as crossover (my Sub is HSU VTF2-MK4... I would rate it good!).
Those are the SPEAKER'S x-over points and have nothing to do with your bass management settings.

120hz is way too high to cross a sub... Those speakers say they are rated to 80Hz, but YPAO setting things to 120Hz indicates they may not meet that spec. I'd still try 100Hz for both the speakers and the sub, and possibly even 80.
 
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herbu

Audioholic Samurai
LFE + main is NOT the correct setting IMO.
Uh oh... now I'm getting confused. My "LFE+Main" setting is under the "Subwoofer Mode" setting. I think it refers to the signal(s) sent to the sub, not the other speakers.

There are only 2 possible settings... "LFE+Main" or "LFE"
"LFE+Main" is described as: "Plays low range and LFE signals of all channels"
"LFE" is described as: "Plays low range and LFE signals of channels set to "Small""

So if you have ALL your speakers set to "Small", I guess the 2 settings would be equivalent.
But if you set your Front L/R to "Large", only the bass for the center & surrounds would be sent to the sub if you select "LFE".

In either case, the "bass" is defined by your crossover settings in your AVR.

So for example, if I select "LFE+Main", and have my L/R speaker crossovers set at 80Hz in the AVR, my L/R will get everything above 80Hz, and my sub will get everything below 80Hz plus LFE. Is that right?

j_garcia, please don't let me steer these guys the wrong way. Thanks!
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Uh oh... now I'm getting confused. My "LFE+Main" setting is under the "Subwoofer Mode" setting. I think it refers to the signal(s) sent to the sub, not the other speakers.

There are only 2 possible settings... "LFE+Main" or "LFE"
"LFE+Main" is described as: "Plays low range and LFE signals of all channels"
"LFE" is described as: "Plays low range and LFE signals of channels set to "Small""

So if you have ALL your speakers set to "Small", I guess the 2 settings would be equivalent.
But if you set your Front L/R to "Large", only the bass for the center & surrounds would be sent to the sub if you select "LFE".

In either case, the "bass" is defined by your crossover settings in your AVR.

So for example, if I select "LFE+Main", and have my L/R speaker crossovers set at 80Hz in the AVR, my L/R will get everything above 80Hz, and my sub will get everything below 80Hz plus LFE. Is that right?

j_garcia, please don't let me steer these guys the wrong way. Thanks!
Which AVR is this? I'll check your manual. I've not seen one that does LFE only to the sub, meaning typically when you set speakers to small that bass below the x-over and LFE go to the sub by definition. NOT doing this makes no sense as you would effectively lose all sounds below the x-over for any speakers set to small, so it wouldn't make sense to have two settings for that. LFE + Mains as I've understood it previously was for use when you have some speakers set to large.
 
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herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Which AVR is this?
It is a Denon X4000.
Setting is in: Setup/Speakers/Manual Setup/Bass/Subwoofer Mode

I'm thinking the same as you. If you set all speakers to "Small", and select only "LFE" for your sub, you will completely filter all bass below your crossover. That's why I said "LFE+Main" was the proper setting. Is this setting option unique to the X4000? It's been a while, but I seem to remember my old Yamaha had it too, but maybe not. My memory is not so great.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
It is a Denon X4000.
Setting is in: Setup/Speakers/Manual Setup/Bass/Subwoofer Mode

I'm thinking the same as you. If you set all speakers to "Small", and select only "LFE" for your sub, you will completely filter all bass below your crossover. That's why I said "LFE+Main" was the proper setting. Is this setting option unique to the X4000? It's been a while, but I seem to remember my old Yamaha had it too, but maybe not. My memory is not so great.
Your thinking about it is wrong. See page 186 of your manual. It says:

Subwoofer Mode
Select low range signals to be reproduced by subwoofer.
LFE (Default) : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small”
speaker size is added to the LFE signal output from the
subwoofer.
LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE
signal output from the subwoofer. This is usually the best
setting for most systems.​

So, with it set to LFE, you get the bass of all channels that are set to small sent to the subwoofer. If you set it to LFE+Main, you get the bass sent to the subwoofer AND to speakers that are set to Large, so that bass will be doubled up (to the extent that the "large" speakers are capable of reproducing the bass). So, if everything is set to Small, it should not matter, but LFE+Main will not be right if anything is set to Large (though people who like boomy bass may like it, which is why it is included in so many receivers). Evidently, Denon thinks boomy bass is best, given their recommendation in the final sentence I quoted above.
 
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herbu

Audioholic Samurai
So, with it set to LFE, you get the bass of all channels that are set to small sent to the subwoofer. If you set it to LFE+Main, you get the bass sent to the subwoofer AND to speakers that are set to Large, so that bass will be doubled up (to the extent that the "large" speakers are capable of reproducing the bass). So, if everything is set to Small, it should not matter, but LFE+Main will not be right if anything is set to Large (though people who like boomy bass may like it, which is why it is included in so many receivers). Evidently, Denon thinks boomy bass is best, given their recommendation in the final sentence I quoted above.
Thanks, Pyrrho. That makes sense. Since I do set all my speakers to "Small", and suggested the OP do the same, "LFE+Main" is not necessary, but doesn't hurt. I guess it's true that God looks out for drunks and fools. Thanks to you and j_garcia for clearing this up.
 
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chefp2010

Enthusiast
I have everything set to to small except for def tech towers.... I'm wondering if I should set them to small but then I think the sound kind of thin... I have everything set to 80hz but am wondering if my center should be set higher than that or maybe lower such as 60hz.. Audyssey sets center at 150hz... So Im not sure where to go from here? I have my towers with subs facing in and it's kind of boomy not to bad but at times it is any ideas as to if I should face them out...and again thxs for all this advice.
 
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herbu

Audioholic Samurai
I've been thinking about this some more.

The X4000 manual says:
"LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE
signal output from the subwoofer. This is usually the best
setting for most systems."

So I'm thinking about what "most systems" means.
Aperion Verus Grand Towers @ ~$1000 each have a frequency response of 45-20k Hz.
Salk SongTower QWTs @ ~$1700 each have a frequency response of 42-20k Hz.
Def Tech BP-8040ST Towers @ ~$800 each have a built-in powered subwoofer and a freq response of 25-30k Hz.

I know Aperion recommends crossover at 80Hz. I suppose Salk is similar.
So I suppose "most" systems will not get good low bass response without sending it to a subwoofer, whether it is built-in like the Def Tech or separate.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I have everything set to to small except for def tech towers.... I'm wondering if I should set them to small but then I think the sound kind of thin... I have everything set to 80hz but am wondering if my center should be set higher than that or maybe lower such as 60hz.. Audyssey sets center at 150hz... So Im not sure where to go from here? I have my towers with subs facing in and it's kind of boomy not to bad but at times it is any ideas as to if I should face them out...and again thxs for all this advice.
It is very hard to say with your Definitive Technology BP7002 tower speakers. They rate them down to 15 Hz, but they do not specify a tolerance for the frequency response of 15-30kHz. So it could be +/-10dB or anything else, which makes the rating pretty much meaningless. I would try them both run full range ("large") and then try crossing them over ("small"), perhaps at 60 or 80 Hz. I would try all three, and if the 60 Hz setting sounded best, I would also try 40 Hz. This is assuming that your receiver can set the crossover frequency differently for the different speakers in your system, because 40 Hz would be way too low for the other speakers you have. Although I recommend that you try the various possibilities mentioned above and listening for yourself, if you do not want to bother with trying out the various possibilities, just set them to small and select 80 Hz. That will work okay.

Your subwoofer, on the other hand, is rated with a tolerance of +/-2dB, so you can count on actually getting 25Hz with them (Outlaw seems respectable in their performance being pretty much what they say it is). My guess is that you want the deepest bass going to it, but if the main speakers could actually do the range they state at +/-3db, you would not want to do it that way, and would probably want to get rid of the subwoofer and just use the front speakers. But, again, the main speakers are not rated +/-3dB, so you can regard their claim as meaningless nonsense that has nothing to do with their actual performance.


The center at 150 Hz seems high. I would try 80 Hz and see how well that worked.


Basically, what the general rule is, is that the crossover setting in the receiver should be above the -3dB point of the bass end of the frequency response of the speaker. If one cannot set this differently for speakers in different positions (e.g., front right and left vs. surround, etc.), then one should set it above the -3dB point of all of them (or in other words, one sets it for the least capable speaker). In my case, I use identical speakers for all positions (other than subwoofers, obviously), and mine have a rated frequency response of 50-40kHz +/-3dB, and I set my crossover to 80 Hz. My automatic setup selects "large" (or full range) on its own, which is obviously not right, and so I manually set my speakers to small and select an 80 Hz crossover.

The second general rule is that you want the crossover to not be too high; the reason being, that otherwise you will start to hear sounds coming from the direction of the subwoofer that should be coming from the direction of one of your other speakers. The THX standard is to use 80 Hz, but you are probably okay with anything from 100 Hz on down, though I recommend using 80 Hz if you can. This second general rule cannot be followed when one has tiny main speakers that can only go down to 120Hz, which is a reason to not buy such speakers.
 
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chefp2010

Enthusiast
So I ran audyssey and this is what it set it at

Def tech Front Right Towers bp7002....... 200hz
Def tech cs 8040hd 120hz
Energy Cb Front Wide 40hz
Def tech surround (R/L) sr8040bp 150hz
Klipsch rear surround 100hz

So as of now I have everything set to small and fronts at 60hz and everything else at 80hz but it still sounds not right yet... Maybe I should set towers at large and everything else at 80hz but then am I loosing anything then,as far as dropouts in the mid frequencit's? I'm kinda stuck as where to go from here.. Maybe I'll rerun audyssey again...Also does audyssey hurt speakers, I have heard both ways.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Can you run your towers in a top only and sub configuration> Tops from your L+R speakers and bottoms from sub out.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
What do you mean tops?
My surround towers have powered subs. They can be hooked up in 2 configurations. I can run them full range by turning the low pass filter off or run them with low pass filter on like this



or I can run them with the top section from the amp and the subs from the pre-pro out (like a real sub)



this way it sounds the best because you can use your crossover setting from your AVR. Mine are just 2 speaker systems in one cabinet. They way I have it set up for now is that I use the top section which is a 2 way set-up for my surrounds and the sub section I am using with my plasma display (which has a sub out) this way I get a decent sound when I am watching TV. Am I making any sense or what??
By using both inputs you can set your speakers to small and get the most out of your sub section. When I purchased mine 13+ years ago they sounded impressive to me, but now they are my weakest link in my system. Come to think of it kind of waste of money.
 
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