Considering upgrading to floor standing speaker

MarciaFunebre

MarciaFunebre

Audiophyte
I wonder if this makes sense in my situation:

The current setup has 2 bookshelf speaker and a 15" sub (also a center and 2 surround speakers; the amp has plenty of power). I do like the sound of it all but I wonder if I could improve the sound in terms of clarity and less strain in the mid section and upper range by using larger tower speakers instead (I would get them from the same line and manufacturer as the bookshelfs are)

Often enough I listen to high volume... going to eleven so to speak with very dynamic music (20th century classical and also film scores for example). I notice that the speakers feel a little strained with sounds of choirs singing fortissimo - I assume that is an example that will put just about any speaker to its ultimate test. My hope is to find a solution to give it more headroom and make feel more at ease even.

Has anybody had any experience regarding this? Thanks for your comments.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Always helps if you're more specific about the gear in terms of make and model of what you've got and what you're thinking about getting specifically as well as any budget for suggestions, etc.

Will depend on the specific speakers....
 
MarciaFunebre

MarciaFunebre

Audiophyte
I thought it was a good thing to keep the brands out of the discussion. I do not expect anybody having the exact same system and both described option to be able to compare. I understand it all reaches into a very subjective territory.

However, if it helps you my current setup is this:
Emotiva XPR5, Onkyo Receiver as pre-amp.
Emotiva ERM 6.2 Speakers for L&R, (also Emotiva speaker for center and surrounds)
Cadence 15" Sub

It's the ERM 6.2 which I consider replacing by Emotiva Airmotiv T1 towers. (The ERM 6.2 would become surround speakers)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
If your bookshelf speakers are straining in dynamic range, then yes, of course a 3-way tower speaker should help to alleviate that. I would make sure that the bookshelf speakers are the actual culprit though. It may be a deeper design issue. Anyway, if you can return the Emotiva towers for a full refund, there is no reason not to give them a try.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I wonder if this makes sense in my situation:

The current setup has 2 bookshelf speaker and a 15" sub (also a center and 2 surround speakers; the amp has plenty of power). I do like the sound of it all but I wonder if I could improve the sound in terms of clarity and less strain in the mid section and upper range by using larger tower speakers instead (I would get them from the same line and manufacturer as the bookshelfs are)

Often enough I listen to high volume... going to eleven so to speak with very dynamic music (20th century classical and also film scores for example). I notice that the speakers feel a little strained with sounds of choirs singing fortissimo - I assume that is an example that will put just about any speaker to its ultimate test. My hope is to find a solution to give it more headroom and make feel more at ease even.

Has anybody had any experience regarding this? Thanks for your comments.
You are absolutely thinking along the right lines.

There is this constant myth that I perpetually try to correct, that if you have a good sub all you need is good bookshelves. This is just plain nonsense, at least for classical music, and especially if you are playing twentieth century orchestral and choral music.

The fact is that there is only a tiny amount of power in the sub range. In a lot of this music the sub will be almost silent.

The real power is in the bass above 60 Hz and right across the mid range. To really reproduce this music with any semblance of reality, then the peak power demands are colossal. Not only that, these power demands can continue for an extended period of time. I'm quite certain your bookshelf speakers a suffering severe dynamic thermal compression and distortion. Even a three way with one mid range driver does not cut it.

In my experience you need at least two drivers with really robust motor systems to do the job.

Now I fully understand a lot of people have no desire to listen at concert levels. However there are times when you want to hunger down and really bring the concert hall to your home. And to be honest unless you have a big budget you will not achieve that.

I was at Orchestra Hall Minneapolis about 10 days ago for a performance of Elgar's the Dream of Gerontius. First performed at Birmingham in 1900. The stage was so packed with performers they were at risk of falling off the stage. In that 1800 seat hall the sound pressure level at times was enormous. The Demon's Chorus was case in point. ("I've written on Hell of Fugue" said Elgar).

My current rig is the only one I have had that can reproduce that kind of repertoir convincingly in the home at full concert level.

So yes, more powerful speakers with more voice coils to share the load will help. But for the sort of repertoir I think you are talking about requires a really meaty and accurate speaker system. So unless you have a very high budget you will have to make some compromises. But you are right a pair of bookshelves and a sub from any manufacturer will get you way wide of the mark.
 
MarciaFunebre

MarciaFunebre

Audiophyte
As I said, I actually do like the sound of the current setup and I think in terms of "bang for the buck" it is absolutely killer. It is just that I demand a lot from it. I make the walls shake with it, but I like definition, clarity and air as well. Therefore it got me thinking whether I want to try some floor standing towers.

Essentially, the bookshelf speakers have
Two 6.5" Woofers, One 25mm tweeter,

whereas the tower would have:

High frequency driver: 25x32 mm Airmotiv folded ribbon tweeter.
Midrange driver: 5-1/4” woven fiber cone.
2 Low frequency drivers: 6” woven fiber cones

Recipe for audible improvement or not, I wonder.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
So I found this mini-review:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/emotiva-erm-6-2.55541/
Which says that these speakers are sealed and rated down to 80-20Khz +/-2db.
This tells me that these need two things a) 90-100hz crossover point and b) A very capable and accurate sub, able to play flat all the way up to 120-150hz. These beasts are not as common as you think, most even good subs just play up to 100 and "give up", take sharp nose dive.

Is this is your sub: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/csx15-mark-ii ???
If so, Josh Ricci, the authority on measuring subs (check his site at http://www.data-bass.com) wasn't very impressed by them.
You may just need a new sub, like this one (or two to help deal with room modes)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html

If this doesn't help, then you may need new speakers. I have nothing but respect for TLSGuy and his audio system(s), but Jeff from JTR Speakers may also know a thing or two about building capable speakers which will play to 11 and far beyond that

I particularly like this video:
 
MarciaFunebre

MarciaFunebre

Audiophyte
You are absolutely thinking along the right lines.

There is this constant myth that I perpetually try to correct, that if you have a good sub all you need is good bookshelves. This is just plain nonsense, at least for classical music, and especially if you are playing twentieth century orchestral and choral music.

The fact is that there is only a tiny amount of power in the sub range. In a lot of this music the sub will be almost silent.

The real power is in the bass above 60 Hz and right across the mid range. (...)

That is a really a good point. Sounds like you understand what challenges this kind of music will bring to a sound setup. "Dream of Gerontius" - here we are talking! I would challenge any system to Scriabin's "Preparation for the Final Mistery"...
And yes, sometimes I go even way above concert level.
Of course, budget is the limitation, otherwise I would have speakers engineered just for me...
 
MarciaFunebre

MarciaFunebre

Audiophyte
Is this is your sub: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/csx15-mark-ii ???
If so, Josh Ricci, the authority on measuring subs (check his site at http://www.data-bass.com) wasn't very impressed by them.
You may just need a new sub, like this one (or two to help deal with room modes)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
It is, and for the $$ it was a good gig. There were some favorable reviews about it too as I remember. In my experience it does very well.
But you are right - upgrading the sub would be something to consider as well, but for that I want to wait until Emotiva's new 15" sub is out with some reviews. Since all my speakers an amp are Emotiva so far, so why not keeping it in the same family, it might just fit in just fine. The HSU in your links looks nice too.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That is a really a good point. Sounds like you understand what challenges this kind of music will bring to a sound setup. "Dream of Gerontius" - here we are talking! I would challenge any system to Scriabin's "Preparation for the Final Mistery"...
And yes, sometimes I go even way above concert level.
Of course, budget is the limitation, otherwise I would have speakers engineered just for me...
Well I do engineer for me.



The fact is that only the double basses and the bass drum touch sub range. Even then the sub only truly comes into play if a large concert hall organ also plays along. There are usually of a hundred instruments with most of their power band right in the mid range and certainly out of sub range. Then in you add in a few hundred voices then the sub becomes a minute part of the equation.

I would not get hung up and having everything from the same manufacturer. There are a lot better speakers around than from Emotiva.
 
MarciaFunebre

MarciaFunebre

Audiophyte
Well I do engineer for me.
Terrific! One skill I don't have...

I would not get hung up and having everything from the same manufacturer. There are a lot better speakers around than from Emotiva.
I am sure there are. And at higher price points. No doubt I will climb up the ladder in future and keep my eyes and ears open for ever new improvements, but for now Emotiva hits the sweet spot for what I can afford and so far I like their quality. I had several people in my studio who own 4 times more expensive sound systems and they were surprised, even said that my setup sounded better than their more expensive one. If nothing else, it tells me that I am not bidding on the lamest horse in the stable.

After all in the audio world it is very difficult to judge gear as it is almost never possible to have everything you are interested setup next to each other for comparison. It's not like you can walk in a store with 20 identical demo rooms with all your favorite choices lined up next to each other. And then it still would sound a bit different when taking things home - and who wants to order a dozen sets of speakers and send them all back? You'd need your own logistics center...

Even most reviews are by a large degree useless single reviews because they don't have all the competitors standing around to make a good comparison review. I would love to see a round table review in each major price category of at least 20 different items, with individual write-ups of several authors. But I totally understand that this would not even be possible for established magazines or Audioholics.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
The emos do get a fair amount of love, and on a budget seem to return satisfying results. I would definitely not worry about matching the subwoofer by brand, and there are some great ones out there right now and I think waiting for the 15"emos might be moot. To answer your original question, yes, I think the towers would be worth it. Especially since you like to push them. More drivers equal more displacement, and you'll normally find higher sensitivity as well.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I thought it was a good thing to keep the brands out of the discussion.
In general, I prefer larger more dynamic speakers that are also accurate (accurate on & off-axis speaker measurements to confirm).
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm a bookshelf/sub guy and that's what I normally suggest, but in your case I think a set of towers would be a good thing. I wouldn't skimp on them though, and do like you said, get towers of at least equal quality as the rest of your system. Save a little longer if you have to.

I would like to eventually get some towers, but the ones I want are gonna take a little saving and scheming. For now I'm really happy with my bookshelf/sub combo. I doubt I listen at the same levels you do, based on your posts though.

I'm gonna chime in on the sub too and ask that you open your mind to different brands. One of the more surprising things I learned here is that bass is very often underrated. A proper sub from a good company can really clean up your whole system, not just add bass. I can strongly recommend Hsu or SVS as I've had offerings from both. SVS subs tend to be prettier and Hsu has a little more bang for your buck. Both make fantastic subs.

Matching brands (timbre) matters more for your front 3 speakers. A lot of good speaker companies do produce kind of "meh" subwoofers. Going with a different brand of sub is not only okay, it's often recommended.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm a bookshelf/sub guy and that's what I normally suggest, but in your case I think a set of towers would be a good thing. I wouldn't skimp on them though, and do like you said, get towers of at least equal quality as the rest of your system. Save a little longer if you have to.

I would like to eventually get some towers, but the ones I want are gonna take a little saving and scheming. For now I'm really happy with my bookshelf/sub combo. I doubt I listen at the same levels you do, based on your posts though.

I'm gonna chime in on the sub too and ask that you open your mind to different brands. One of the more surprising things I learned here is that bass is very often underrated. A proper sub from a good company can really clean up your whole system, not just add bass. I can strongly recommend Hsu or SVS as I've had offerings from both. SVS subs tend to be prettier and Hsu has a little more bang for your buck. Both make fantastic subs.

Matching brands (timbre) matters more for your front 3 speakers. A lot of good speaker companies do produce kind of "meh" subwoofers. Going with a different brand of sub is not only okay, it's often recommended.
Although I have 3way floorstanders and expect to be replacing them with 3way floorstanders I can vouch for book shelf speakers.

My RBH R5Bi just showed up last week and they've been in the spot where my 804 B&W are just getting some hours on them before I move them to the side rears.

My neighbor has a 5.4 setup with B&W 805D (not sure which version) and it sounds incredible. But he spent like $10k just on the 5 speakers, not including stands.

The OP could upgrade his book shelf speakers and get better performance if he wanted to stay with books. It might be more cost effective to get towers, and the ones he wants I think will timbre match his center.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...But he spent like $10k just on the 5 speakers, not including stands.
I'm sure you already know this, but in case some people don't realize, how much money people spend on the speakers doesn't always guarantee the performance.

And there's always more than 1 factor. If someone must own B&W (or other brands like McIntosh), then they should buy those brands. That's important.

But for those people who don't care to own certain brands, the question is: could that $10K+ go towards much more Dynamic and Accurate speakers, especially for bigger rooms ? :D
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm sure you already know this, but in case some people don't realize, how much money people spend on the speakers doesn't always guarantee the performance.

And there's always more than 1 factor. If someone must own B&W (or other brands like McIntosh), then they should buy those brands. That's important.

But for those people who don't care to own certain brands, the question is: could that $10K+ go towards much more Dynamic and Accurate speakers, especially for bigger rooms ? :D
I own B&Ws now have for nearly 20 yrs and I think that might've influence him to buy them, but I'm not partial to any particular brand...I want the most accurate for money I can spend.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Even most reviews are by a large degree useless single reviews because they don't have all the competitors standing around to make a good comparison review. I would love to see a round table review in each major price category of at least 20 different items, with individual write-ups of several authors. But I totally understand that this would not even be possible for established magazines or Audioholics.
That is why we have measurements...
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I own B&Ws now have for nearly 20 yrs and I think that might've influence him to buy them, but I'm not partial to any particular brand...I want the most accurate for money I can spend.
Accurate like in on-axis and off-axis Frequency Response measurements?

What about dynamics? Ability to play more effortlessly without distortion?

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H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Really good bookshelf or studio monitor speakers and sub should be fine. It's the cheap, bad ones that give the whole category of bookshelf speakers a bad make. It is my theory that really good bookshelf speakers and a great sub is as good as towers. Your gonna need a sub anyway is my theory. I switched from towers to an all bookshelf/studio monitor system and a better sub and it's fantastic. I love it.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
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