Cons of using a cheap receiver as a pre/pro with dedicated amp?

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LiveJazz

Junior Audioholic
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. I do want to get a nice, powerful amp. So that is a given; it will happen.

But why should I shell out for a dedicated separate pre/pro, when I can get a cheaper receiver (with pre-outs) that has the same connection options and audio codecs, and just use that as the pre/pro (all amplification duties outsourced)? Seems logical that the difference would be minimal or non-existant since we are talking about programs and codes - you either run a program and have the code or you don't - and not amplification.

Even "value" pre-amps such as those made by Emotiva are considerably more expensive than this receiver, for example, which appears to do 95% + of the same things if used as a pre/pro only.

What am I missing? I've seen the option of using a cheap receiver as a pre/pro tossed around as a cost effective option, but I get the impression I'm missing some details.
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
If I needed more power than what is in a receiver, I would likely still buy a receiver (with preąmp outputs) and then add whatever ąmplification was necessary. I think one typically gets a better value in a receiver than in separates, probably due primarily to the economy of scale (that is, it is much cheaper per unit to build a huge number of them than to build only a few, and since most people buy receivers [as that is all that most people need], they will often be so much cheaper that one is basically getting paid to take the built-in ąmplification).

Now, in a specific case, you would want to look at output impedance of the different options, the noise floor, etc., to know which is best. But a mid-level Yamaha is going to be good, regardless of the fact that it will likely not be the very best that money can buy.

But you might want to read this review before you decide:

Emotiva UMC-200 AV Preamp / Processor Review | Audioholics
 
L

LiveJazz

Junior Audioholic
Now, in a specific case, you would want to look at output impedance of the different options, the noise floor, etc., to know which is best. But a mid-level Yamaha is going to be good, regardless of the fact that it will likely not be the very best that money can buy.
Is that kind of info typically published (other than in very detailed reviews like one your provided....thanks!), particularly for a receiver and not a separate? They probably don't expect many users to be concerned about that, as most people will just use the built in amplification and be happy.

But that's basically what I was wondering...if there's a difference from one pre-pro option to another, beyond software and compatibility, as it seems that most of the pre/pro-relevant published specs revolve around that.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
But why should I shell out for a dedicated separate pre/pro, when I can get a cheaper receiver (with pre-outs) that has the same connection options and audio codecs, and just use that as the pre/pro (all amplification duties outsourced)? Seems logical that the difference would be minimal or non-existant since we are talking about programs and codes - you either run a program and have the code or you don't - and not amplification.
I don't see anything against using an AVR as a pre/pro instead of a dedicated, and more expensive separate pre/pro.

That's exactly what I've done in my system, with 2 different AVRs, for many years. I add an external 2-channel amp to drive my front left and right speakers, and use the AVRs internal amplifier channels for the center and rear speakers. I think it works great, and compared to the one system I've heard with a separate pre/pro and a 5-channel amp, it works indistinguishably well.

I believe the only reason why you see few if any separate pre/pros with all the latest lossless audio codecs and HDMI switching available, is there is very low demand for them. The smaller companies that specialize in separates are not able to keep up with the big asian AVR makers.
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Is that kind of info typically published (other than in very detailed reviews like one your provided....thanks!), particularly for a receiver and not a separate? They probably don't expect many users to be concerned about that, as most people will just use the built in amplification and be happy.

But that's basically what I was wondering...if there's a difference from one pre-pro option to another, beyond software and compatibility, as it seems that most of the pre/pro-relevant published specs revolve around that.
There are differences in performance, but often the differences will not be audible. For example, once the frequency response is so flat that it is impossible to hear any deviation at all, then better will not be audibly better; once the noise floor is so low you hear no noise, a lower noise floor will not be audibly better; etc.

You can find out about detailed specifications generally by downloading owner's manuals for the products you are considering, and you can find actual performance from detailed reviews in which measurements are taken, if there are any such reviews of whatever it is you are considering. With Yamaha, I believe you will need to register with them to download their manuals, but it is free.

However, in most cases, you can buy based on features desired, inputs, etc., because most of the time, you will not actually hear any difference between two respectable preąmps/processors, unless you engage a feature that affects the sound (of which there are typically many).

Yamaha is a particularly good choice in some respects, as they tend to be very reliable.


Now, there is a "reason" to go with a separate preąmp/processor, and that is that snooty audiophiles hold their noises up at the idea of receivers, because they believe that putting things in separate boxes instead of all together magically makes things better. So if impressing people of a certain type is the goal, you will need to go with something other than a receiver.

I personally would probably go with a Yamaha receiver, as I generally like their features, and they tend to be very reliable, which matters very much to me. And if not all of your speakers require extra power, you can save money by using some of the built-in ąmplifiers. Some people, for example, use them for the surround channels, and just buy a power ąmp for the front speakers.


As I do not know what speakers you are using (or how loud you want things to be, etc.), I cannot comment on whether you need any extra power or not than what will come with a receiver. If you don't need any extra power, then external ąmplification is a waste of money. But if you do need it, then, obviously, it isn't waste of money.

In my case, I have easy to drive speakers in my home theater, so I just use a receiver for them. For my main 2 channel stereo, I have 3 ohm speakers which I drive with a separate power ąmp. If you need an ąmp, you need one, but if you don't, then it is a waste. Remember that before parting with your money.


You might want to read this thread about power output:

AVR Power Output Comparison

If you read down far enough into it, you will find that separate power amps don't always do better when tested.
 
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L

LiveJazz

Junior Audioholic
I personally would probably go with a Yamaha receiver, as I generally like their features, and they tend to be very reliable, which matters very much to me. And if not all of your speakers require extra power, you can save money by using some of the built-in ąmplifiers. Some people, for example, use them for the surround channels, and just buy a power ąmp for the front speakers.
Good to know you can do that....I'd been wondering if that's commonly done. How does that affect your ability to set the appropriate volume balance among channels? Particularly if the mains are on a two channel amp and the center isn't. Not many 3 channel amps out there, and I don't particularly want to buy three monoblocks.

As I do not know what speakers you are using (or how loud you want things to be, etc.), I cannot comment on whether you need any extra power or not than what will come with a receiver. If you don't need any extra power, then external ąmplification is a waste of money. But if you do need it, then, obviously, it isn't waste of money.

In my case, I have easy to drive speakers in my home theater, so I just use a receiver for them. For my main 2 channel stereo, I have 3 ohm speakers which I drive with a separate power ąmp. If you need an ąmp, you need one, but if you don't, then it is a waste. Remember that before parting with your money.
Frankly, my speakers may not even require extra power (I haven't even chosen them yet), but I want the flexibility to use speakers that DO require extra power in the future....which is why I want an amp. Just seems like a good thing to have.
 
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ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I think the avr with preouts is a great option, honestly when you are running a 5 channel system, spending extra money on the amp for your front 3 and letting your avr power the surrounds is also a great idea....
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Good to know you can do that....I'd been wondering if that's commonly done. How does that affect your ability to set the appropriate volume balance among channels? Particularly if the mains are on a two channel amp and the center isn't. Not many 3 channel amps out there, and I don't particularly want to buy three monoblocks.

You still have level controls for channel balance (which are controls within the preąmp section), and that should be taken care of with the automatic setup (I don't think anything decent these days lacks an automatic setup; I certainly recommend getting something with an automatic setup). However, preąmplifier output levels are not completely standardized, and neither are the inputs on power ąmplifiers. Most of the time, one will not end up with a serious problem. But you should read this article:

Amplifier Voltage Gain Explained – Matching Amp to Preamp | Audioholics

I would not be surprised if some people actually degrade the sound by adding power ąmps when they imagine that they are making it better; see the article for an explanation. The issues discussed there, by the way, still should be considered if you buy a separate preąmp instead.

As indicated in the article, most people don't bother considering such matters and just hook up an ąmplifier to a preąmp. Usually it works okay. One avoids all such thoughts and potential problems by just buying a receiver and using its internal ąmplifiers.


Frankly, my speakers may not even require extra power (I haven't even chosen them yet), but I want the flexibility to use speakers that DO require extra power in the future....which is why I want an amp. Just seems like a good thing to have.

I think it is a good idea to keep it in mind as a possibility, but I do not think it is a good idea to proactively buy a power ąmp. There are two reasons for that. First, if it is unnecessary, it will just be a total waste of money. Power that you don't need does not help the sound at all. Second, if you have not yet selected your speakers, you really do not know what you need in a power ąmp, so it is possible that you will have purchased one that isn't really good enough. Some speakers are very demanding, and it would be quite unfortunate to have to replace a new ąmp immediately.

So select your speakers first, then figure out what they need to be adequately driven. There is a very good chance that the receiver will be adequate on its own. But if not, you should then buy appropriate ąmplification and at that point you will be able to get some idea of how much capability is really needed.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
All these posts above are all have great points. But what they all say, but perhaps what OP is "missing" is vast majority of cheap avrs do not have pre-outs and typically show up on mid-range.
Yamaha used to offer this on slightly lower end of the budget but I can't tell you if they still do
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
All these posts above are all have great points. But what they all say, but perhaps what OP is "missing" is vast majority of cheap avrs do not have pre-outs and typically show up on mid-range.
Yamaha used to offer this on slightly lower end of the budget but I can't tell you if they still do
I think the comparison is not between cheap and mid priced receivers but rather between mid priced receivers and separate preamp/processors.
 
L

LiveJazz

Junior Audioholic
^ Correct.

I guess I wouldn't get an amp if I really didn't need one. I need a few receiver or pre-pro anyway (mine is over 10 years old, has no HDMI, no networking, no nothing), so I could get a mid-level receiver for the tech, and use its amplification if possible depending on speakers, and get an amp later and use the receiver pre-outs when/if needed.

I was actually looking at the Emotiva speakers (some great reviews, and the price is certainly right...any opinions?), and they are all "rated" at 4 ohm. There are a few other contenders in that category. I get sensitive and/or 8 ohm speakers, I wouldn't get an amp, but want to be prepared if I do.
 
P

Phules

Enthusiast
I am using that same receiver with an Onkyo M-504 amp from the preouts and it works great. My mains are B&W 703s and they like the power coming from the dedicated amp. I am thinking about adding an Emotiva USP-1 though for the phono input and HT bypass.
 
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