Connecting sub to receiver w/no sub output

Discussion in 'A/V Interconnects, Cables & Power Conditioning' started by rkilpatrick, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. rkilpatrick Audiophyte

    rkilpatrick
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi there. I have a Sony STR-D611 reciever with no sub output. I've been told that you CAN connect a subwoofer to this system AND still have front A & B and surround speakers. Anyone know the secret?

    Thanks!!
  2. Unregistered Guest

    Unregistered
    You could probably use the tape out jack. On most receivers, the record outs (tape, video1, etc) are always active. This would send a line level signal out and you would utilize the cross-over on the sub.
  3. markw Audioholic Overlord

    markw
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    11,236
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Location:
    Joisey and Texas
    Using the tape monitor output has one serious disadvantage. Aside from source selection, your receiver would not control the signal to the sub. To adjust it at all, you need to kerfutz with the sub's level control.

    Let's hope your sub has speaker level in/out capabilities. If so, use that.

    If you have preamp outs, you can use that to drive your sub with a line level signal.
  4. rkilpatrick Audiophyte

    rkilpatrick
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the advice. Since I don't have preamp outs, and sub connection is line level (just 1 RCA input), I guess I'll try the tape monitor. This will drive the sub even if another source (ex. DVD, CD) is selected?
  5. markw Audioholic Overlord

    markw
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    11,236
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Location:
    Joisey and Texas
    yep. ..just one line level input on the sub?

    But don't expect to be able to control the sub's volume thru the receiver.

    BTW, if you have just one input on the sub, you have another problem. You will need to somehow hook up both channels to the sub. By merely using a "Y" connector to combine the two channels, the signal may very well mono for the receiver as well.

    Paradigm, and probably others sell devices that will combine your two channels for the sub while maintaining the two separate channels for the remainder of the signal path.

    Was this sub a gimme or did you just purchase it recently?
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2004
  6. Unregistered Guest

    Unregistered
    ...and why would he need to? If the receiver doesn't have a sub out, then it certainly doesn't offer bass management or individual channel trims. Just use the sub's volume control and adjust it as close as you can. Once it's set, there is no need to change it.

    Yes, just use a y-connector. The sub out on a receiver is mono anyway. You can use a normal l/r analog audio cable connected to a 2 to 1 Y connector if the sub has only a single input (like most).

    There is no remainder of the signal path. It ends at the sub. We are not talking about routing a signal to the sub and then back through the tape loop for recording.

    The original poster just wanted ideas on a quick hack to use a sub with a line level input with a receiver that does not have a sub out. The tape out loop is his only choice, unless he decides to use speaker level inputs, which is not what he asked about.
  7. markw Audioholic Overlord

    markw
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    11,236
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Location:
    Joisey and Texas
    wanna bet? If the tape out were after the volume control you might have a valid point. ...but it's not. It's before the volume control.


    maybe, maybe not. A sub out may be mono but tape monitors are two separate channels, which may or may not be still in the circuit. You can easily split one output to two inputs w/o problems but you generally can't combine two outputs into one input.

    I do know if you do this at the pre out level, the two power amps receive two idential mono signals, not two distinct channels. But hey' let him try it. "Y" connectors are cheap and he might get lucky.

    True, but sometimes when presented with a choice, the correct answer in "none of the above".

    If I may add, that's quite an arrogant tone and wrong advice from one who doesn't even bother to register
  8. zipper Full Audioholic

    zipper
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Dark Side of the Moon
    Good replies Mark. Sub volume does need to change with receiver volume. The drop-in poster doesn't realize that using a sub doesn't require the receiver to have bass management.
  9. markw Audioholic Overlord

    markw
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    11,236
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Location:
    Joisey and Texas
    Thanks

    I seem to have picked up at least one unregistered heckler. Another snide and totally useless "unregistered" reply was dropped on me in the beginners forum.

    I guess they are just jealous of my greatness. :D
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2004
  10. rkilpatrick Audiophyte

    rkilpatrick
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Admittedly, the sub is part of a pretty cheap home theater system I just purchased that came with a reciever that DOES have a sub line level out, but DOES NOT have A & B front speaker outs like my old receiver does.

    So I guess the bottom line is that I want to connect the entire surround system and two other "front" speakers in another room.

    Like you said, connecting the sub to the tape out last night did not seem to be the answer.
  11. markw Audioholic Overlord

    markw
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    11,236
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Location:
    Joisey and Texas
    Now I'm confused.

    Is this an all-in-one system? They sometimes play by their own rules.

    Most "receivers" have speaker outputs for the speakers. That's pretty much a given. You would normally simply hook up the speakers as normal.

    Now, you say you have one lonely sub out on the receiver. Logic dictates that you would connect an interconnect from that to the sub's input. problem solved!

    For the life of me, I cannot grok how doing this would preclude your using your other speakers.

    Now, if you are saying that your old system allowed you to run two sets of speakers and your new receiver doesn't, then that's another issue entirely.

    You could , perhaps, pick up a cheapo switch box from RatShack or the like that would allow you to run two sets of speakers when needed. But, and here's the big one, your receiver may not be able to safely (read - without smoking out) handle two sets of speakers simultaneously.

    Some things have to be sacrificed to keep the price down and amplifiers are a good candidate for cost cutting. The fact that your amp doesn't make provisions for two sets of speakers would give me grevious cause for concern.

    You might want to check out parts express or madisound for CONSTANT IMPEDANCE (very important - notice the capitals) switchboxes. This might work, but I make no promises. You might want to run this by the mfgr first.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2004
  12. Unregistered Guest

    Unregistered
    We are all humbled by your greatness. The fact that you are 'registered' adds immensely to your credibility.
  13. Unregistered Guest

    Unregistered
    Every receiver I have ever seen says "The Volume Control has no effect on the output of tape-out". So true, the volume will not vary with the position of the volume control, which is why he must use the sub's volume control and that may or may not be sufficient. But again, the original poster was looking for a way to accomplish *something* that might work, not a perfect solution. The point is moot anyway because now he says the receiver does have sub-out and the question and answers no longer have any relevance.


    What are you talking about? The output jack is the end of the line, of course it is "out of the circuit". We are talking about using tape out NOT a tape monitor loop. You can do whatever you want. Whether it will have the desired outcome is a totally different topic. A Y connector is passive and will not process the signal in any way. Both channels are munged together, which won't be an issue for the sub anyway.


    If you use the pre-outs of a receiver to feed an amp, the amp will see two distinct channels. In no way will the pre-outs process the signal so that each input receives an identical signal - that would kind of defeat the purpose of using the pre-outs in the first place, wouldn't you say?

    If you were to use the l/r pre-outs connected to a Y connector to feed a single input on the sub it will be exactly the same as doing the same thing from the tape-out l/r jacks. The only difference is the pre-outs will be affected by the volume control. But again the poster was looking for any way to accomplish it.

    There was nothing arrogant about it, you simply took it that way. Being registered means absolutely nothing. You seem to think that because you registered, the information you provide is unimpeachable and that couldn't be further from the truth. Now that is arrogant.
  14. Clint DeBoer Banned

    Clint DeBoer
    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,159
    Likes Received:
    857
    Location:
    Lakeland, Florida, United States
    While it has nothing to do with authoritativeness of anyone's posts, we would prefer that people registered as it at least lends some kind of designation to the poster.

    Plus then other people cannot post pretending to be you (all guests look the same).
  15. zipper Full Audioholic

    zipper
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Dark Side of the Moon
    Good gawd,they're everywhere. Unregistered,there is no need to cut & paste replies if your goal is to try to answer ones' questions.It's not a pissing contest,it's about trying to help someone solve an issue with their gear.
  16. joelincoln Junior Audioholic

    joelincoln
    Joined:
    May 19, 2004
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    0
    Connecting outputs with a Y connector is problematic at best and damaging at worst. The resulting signal will be unpredictable. Certain signals may cancel and others add. And then there's the potential for distortion generated by backdriving the internal buffer-amp.

    This is just a bad idea.
  17. Shinerman Senior Audioholic

    Shinerman
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    8 BEERS DEEP IN A 12 PACK

    Being registered is important because it gives we members an idea of who we are dealing with in regards to their knowledge, experience, personality, system, past dealings, temperment, etc. Posters should register out of courtesy and respect for the members in general. I might respond to Markw differently than I would respond to Rob B. or Zipper on a given subject. I might also poked fun at one person and not another because I may know one of the members might not take it well.

    It's all about being courteous. How hard is that?

    You have taken the time to take part in these forums now take a couple of minutes and register. If you don't want to register, that's fine as well. But, don't expect to be taken very seriously when you start arguing with people. Arguing is fine, but at least be man, or women enough to register.

    Shinerman, waiting for the clock to hit 5 to so I can consume some beer and wings.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2004
  18. markw Audioholic Overlord

    markw
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    11,236
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Location:
    Joisey and Texas
    Since you are the only one of the "unregistereds" that even tried to help. I'll explain a little what I'm saying. As far as the others that had nothing to offer, well, you know..


    I never said it would NOT work. But, for someone not aware that the signal is fed full volume to the sub, it can be quite a disconcerting experience. Personally, I find this method of driving the sub totally unacceptable but that's just me. I like to set it once, in relation to the volume control, and pretty much leave it at that.

    If he HAD to usethe moitors and was willing to live with the volume adjustment situation, then all would be well. ...but I fine it a royal PITA and would rather do without it. Again, that's just me.

    And I'm glad it worked out that way. I thought it strange that a HT receiver lacked a sub out.



    I'll try to make this as simple as possible. Let's draw it out. don't think I'm talking qdown to you but sometimes a little visualization helps. I certainly benefit from it at times.

    1) Draw two parallel lines about three inches long and about two" apart. Drawing them horizontaly would be helpful.

    2) Now between theose two lines, starting somewhere in the middle, draw a third line and extend it (towards the right) to where the other lines end

    3) Label one "R" and the other "L" and the one in the middle "S". These are the two channels in question, with the subwoofer in between.

    Let's think of these as the hot (inner) wire and ignore the shields.

    4) Label the left side of the R & L lines "source"

    5) Label the right side "amp"

    We now have two separate signals going from the source to the amp.

    6) Now, let's add that "Y" connector by connecting the "R" and "L" to the "S" line where it starts in the middle.


    Now, what we would LIKE to happen is that the R (and L, for that matter) signal would travel ONLY half way down that connecting line and go out the subwoofer line while maintaning their independence on their original R and L paths, right?

    Oh, were it only that simple...

    What happens in the real world is that yes, the two signals will go down the subwoofer line and out it, but they will ALSO continue along that connecting like to the OPPOSITE signal's line.

    We've now combined the R & L for the subwoofer's benefit but we've also combined them for ANY signal path that connects to it as well.

    Kapice?

    Some companies make devices that will combine the R and L into a common signal and maintain each channel's integrity, but there's a lot more than a simple "Y" connector involved.

    I most certainly not impeachable, but if I give erronous advice, they know from wence it originated. Likewise, when I give good advice, which I do try to do, they also know who gave it. I try to pride myself on giving good advice. Sometimes I do make mistakes, but I'm only human. Likewise, I don't hide behind an anonymous moniker so when I screw the pooch, it's there for all to see.

    Likewise, if I consistently post ka ka, people would know to avoid me like the plague. Heck, people do anyway. That's just part of the wonder that is me.

    Readers Digest version. Although it's not required (yet) If you want offer advice, pick a name and stick with it. If you don't have enough pride in your answers to stand by it, then you shouldn't be posting. Asking questions is fine, but offering advice anonymously is, IMNSHO, questionsble

    Now, one can offer advice that either augments or contradicts anothers without seeming to be confrontational. I tried to do that when I "augmented" the suggestion about using the tape monitors by pointing out the caveat that controling the volume might be more of an issue than he initially assumed.

    No offense was meant and I tried to word it as to not offend the original poster. If one is easily offended by people either adding to an answer or, heaven forbid, even contradicting it, then perhaps these forums are not for that type of person.

    If that WAS you, then I apologize. As has been pointed out, it's hard to know who you are dealing when one is not registered. I don't know if I have here one "unregistered" that sometimes overacts or more than one, some of which are dripping sphincters.

    For the sake of peace, I'll assume there are more than one and the snide ones can go forth and engage in asexual reproduction for all I care.

    If you will notice, when you "confronted" me I did not rile up. I tried to explain what I was saying in more detail without too much hostility. Incredulity, yes, but no hostility. I do expect the same courtsey.

    Now, I see you truly mean well and seem to want to contribute. That's good. Be a mensch, register and post the BEST answers you can muster.

    Be aware that there are others who know more than you (and more than me, too) and you may run into them on occasion. But, buck up and take yer lumps and you'll be a better netitizen for it. ...and learn to laugh. You'll live longer.

    Pax, Markw
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2004
  19. Unregistered Guest

    Unregistered
    Markw,
    Now we are getting somewhere. Good description of the signal path (I did do your exercise). I understand and agree, but it took you a hundred words to describe it - I didn't bother to do that. That is one problem with message forums vs speaking in person. Unless we all describe every little detail in every post, it takes multiple posts to see eye to eye. Your exercise makes clear what you are talking about, but your original description did not (to me).

    A forum is a place to discuss issues and gather the collective knowlege of all who post. Why did you jump to the conclusion that I was being arrogant and claiming you didn't know what you were talking about when all I did was post my follow ups to your thoughts? You then did the same - that is how it goes on a forum.

    We both agree there is no good solution and after many posts I think we have hashed out all the issues. The original poster can use the info or ignore it. No disrespect was intended.

    As far as the 'requirement' to register to be taken seriously, I do take issue with that notion. I've only come here a few times and am not sure yet if I want to participate regularly. Dismissing a post because someone didn't choose a cute little nickname is just plain silly - the info should be evaluated for what its worth regardless of the username. Would you really take the advice of someone with a username of CRX_!!2T over an anonymous poster just because that person is registered?
  20. markw Audioholic Overlord

    markw
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    11,236
    Likes Received:
    3,050
    Location:
    Joisey and Texas
    It costs nothing to register. You need not provide personal informatuin to the public. Should you choose, you can walk away at any time with no repercussions.

    Do you want to be confused with the other wankers that post as unregistered?

    Again, not knowing who I am dealing with, I sort of assume a bit of familarity with the subject at hand.

    I've been playing with this stuff since the early 60's and try to not talk down to others while sharing what I can but it's tough to gauge another's experience in the field, particularly to every unregistered that pops up.

    As far as not going into every little detail to explain something, a lot depends on the experience and knowledge of who one is speaking to.

    A certain amount of knowledge is pretty much assumed when one chooses to answer questions. When exchanging thoughts about a reply, I assume a certain depth of knowledge with the subject at hand and reply as if to an equal, or even one who knows more. I never assume I know more than to other guy. You never know who is on the other keyboard.

    Heck, I STILL learn stuff. But not by confronting someone in an antoginistic manner when their take on a solution doesn't match mine. I ask them to explain, not attack their post. I'm well aware that there may be more than one way to skin a cat (and a lot depends on how you 're gonna cook it :eek: ).

    This co-mingling of the R & L signal is not an obscure fact and is pretty well known. It really doesn't taks a hundred words to bring it to light to someone with experience in the field. ...and, let's be honest here, you presented yourself as having quite a bit of knowledge on the subject and I simply answered a I would to one that does.

    When it became clear that you could use a little coaching, I stepped it down a little. I have no problem with that, and don't hold it against anybody, but do talk to one in the manner in which they present themselves. You came off as knowledgable, but with certain misconceptions, and I responded as if I were speaking to one that was.

    Now, had you a consistent moniker, I would know who I an talking to next tme we encounter each other. But, don't expect me to break everything down into bite sized little pieces for every unregistered that pops into here.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2004

Share This Page

  • EMPTek.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
  • CEDIA