Coaxial Cable: RG6 or Quad Shielded RG6?

[ErinH]

I did a quick search and didn’t find the results I was hoping for.

I’m currently pre-wiring my house for DirectTV (no cable at all in my area). I was told by a friend who once worked for them that standard rg6 is fine, but DTV is telling me to use quad core for any HD runs. Well, I’ve got the house gutted, so I figure I might as well do it right the first time, right? QC rg6 is pretty cheap on the ‘net. I figure 1000’ should cover most of it but I might order an additional 250’ just to be on the safe side.

So, my question is two-parted:
1. Is QS rg6 really overkill?
2. Do you place more importance on the center conductor: solid copper core or copper clad? I’ve read that more importance should be placed on the center conductor and not the shielding.

I understand both sides; I’m more or less looking for what you guys have done successfully. I’m really leaning towards the QS, but maybe there’s something else I need to know.

Thanks, guys.

Oh, and here’s a camera phone picture of my DIY A/V closet, lol.
Looks like garbage, but it’s cheap. And now every room has dual cat5 runs for phone/data/upgrades. Again, I figure why not? *shrugs*

 

[Rickster71]

Hi Erin,
If it were my house I'd go with Quad shield and a solid copper core.

Rick

 

[Bryce_H]

when I wired my hometheater I ran QS everywhere. Below is a cut and paste of my dissertation from a previous thread on wiring needs

Here is my dissertation.

I started this quest about 2 years ago. We were building a new house and got an unfinished basement so I could design and build the dedicated HT myself. I started by subscribing to a bunch of magazines and cruising through old issues I already had. Frankly most were not helpful, maybe once every six months they would have an article about home theater that was NOT product related. These typically dealt with lighting or acoustic treatments, or maybe once and a blue moon something about actual construction. One magazine that was very helpful was Home Theater Builder magazine (now defunct). I then found this amazing sight called Audioholics The people here have been great in answering questions and providing advice. Another great resource is this thread over at HomeTheaterForums

I would read this thread front to back. It helped to prevent a LOT of problems. Basically the thread is a series of responses of things people wish they had done or things they are glad they did do. It raised a lot of things I never would of thought of, but of course would have realized later. Lastly I copied and modified a spreadsheet I found at sound and vision.

The attached sheet is used to develop the dimensions of the theater and seating distances. Manually enter information in the blue cells, all other cells are automatic calculations. Each blue cell has a comment telling you what to enter and what it will effect.

The first sheet "Room Dimensions" is split in two. The top (above the black line) are the quick and dirty calculations. The bottom (below the black line) are the ideal dimensions. There are no cut and dry answers - it will take some playing with numbers to get it all correct (or as close as possible). You may need to go back and change some numbers afterwards as well (for example screen size).

The second sheet allows you to fine tune your dimensions from the first sheet. Use the first sheet values as your initial values here. Keep playing with them until you get the best numbers you can. These calculations are sensitive enough that an inch or two can make a huge difference.

I can't stress enough the importance of good room design and dimensions. It will prevent an enormous amount of potential problems. Failure to properly design a room will result in very poor sound, requiring lots of effort (and cash) to rectify. Room acoustics are the name of the game.

After I did all my research and drew my schematics for the room I hired a HT designer and installer for a couple of hours ($75 an hour) to come the house and have me walk through everything I had. This was mostly just a sanity check to make sure I wasn't missing something drastic.

I did all the electrical work for my home theater. Here is what I did just for my HT. I have 2" conduit running to all the 7 speaker locations. I also have an insane amount of low-watt wiring terminating in my component closet. Here is the breakdown

- 4 coax in from the main structured wiring panel
- 4 Cat 5e in from the main structured wiring panel (wish I had done more)
- 4 coax out to potential sub locations (L/R main, right wall 1/3 way back, left wall 2/3 way back)
- 2 coax out to the front screen wall
- 2 Cat 5e out to the front screen wall
- 2 4-conductor shielded 22ga wire out to front screen wall for IR and other future control needs (drop down screen??)
- 2 coax out to front of second row riser
- 2 cat 5e out to front of second row riser
- 2 4-conductor shielded 22ga wire to front of second row riser
- 2 4-conductor shielded 22ga wire to main light switch box

The coax (all QS) can be used for sub, cable, or sat systems. Cat5e is for networking or control needs. The 22ga shielded is strictly for control needs.

Also don't forget to run some wires to a potential front projector location (electrical and video).

When we had the house built we had structured wiring put in every room (but no audio). Every room has a 4 jack plate with 2 RG6 F-connectors and 2 Cat5e jacks. The office actually has 2 of these. I also got the living room pre-wired for a 5.1 in-ceiling to set up as a second system for casual viewing in the future. Just some ideas of what I have done.

Good luck and keep asking questions.

 

[highfigh]

I did a quick search and didn’t find the results I was hoping for.

I’m currently pre-wiring my house for DirectTV (no cable at all in my area). I was told by a friend who once worked for them that standard rg6 is fine, but DTV is telling me to use quad core for any HD runs. Well, I’ve got the house gutted, so I figure I might as well do it right the first time, right? QC rg6 is pretty cheap on the ‘net. I figure 1000’ should cover most of it but I might order an additional 250’ just to be on the safe side.

So, my question is two-parted:
1. Is QS rg6 really overkill?
2. Do you place more importance on the center conductor: solid copper core or copper clad? I’ve read that more importance should be placed on the center conductor and not the shielding.

I understand both sides; I’m more or less looking for what you guys have done successfully. I’m really leaning towards the QS, but maybe there’s something else I need to know.

Thanks, guys.

Oh, and here’s a camera phone picture of my DIY A/V closet, lol.
Looks like garbage, but it’s cheap. And now every room has dual cat5 runs for phone/data/upgrades. Again, I figure why not? *shrugs*

Quad shield is good insurance against EMI/RFI and doesn't cost much more than regular RG-6. Just make sure you get the right ends- I worked for a guy who just didn't seem to understand that they're different and as if I didn't already hate MC, it was their cable and ends.

Solid copper center conductor is definitely what you want. Copper clad steel beats the crap out of cable cutters but the worst thing is that when it's bent, it compresses the dielectric and can cause more noise problems. If the wire is kinked, you're better off cutting it and splicing it but never hide the splice. Even if you end up cutting off 50', save it- you'll end up making jumpers and other cables later.

 

[ErinH]

Thanks, guys. I wound up going with this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330287736270&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

Solid copper core. I just need to make SURE I tell my cable guy that I have the quad so he uses the right connectors (assuming they’re any different than other f-type connectors).

I actually made my own A/V cables using belden 1505f and neutrik connectors. That worked out pretty well, though the neutrik connectors were kind of garbage because they didn’t really lock into the preouts. But, that’s what you get when you buy the cheap ones. The more popular neutrik connectors are much better in this regard, but in some cases are about twice as much ($1.20 vs. $0.60 each).
I don’t have a crimping tool for F-type; I just soldered my last coaxial DIY cables. I’m highly considering buying my own connectors and crimper for this (since I can see me using them later). Any suggestions? I’ve seen crimping tools as cheap as $15 and expensive as $80.

*side story: Was in HD a few weeks ago buying a coaxial cable stipper tool. Couldn’t decide between the $50 one and the $14 one… figured the $50 had to be better. Guy (who is on the phone and can’t talk to me) taps me on the shoulder. He points at the cheaper one, then points at his hat which says “Comcast”. I bought the cheaper ones and they work just fine. *

So, any suggestions for QS connectors? Are they a standard F-type?
Also, suggestions on a crimper? I’ll definitely look myself online, but if you guys have something you suggest (hopefully cheap, lol) I’d appreciate that input.
I would be using the crimper for both RG6/59 connectors and RCA connectors.

Thanks again, fellas!

 

[ee4hire]

Thanks, guys. I wound up going with this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330287736270&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

So, any suggestions for QS connectors? Are they a standard F-type?
Also, suggestions on a crimper? I’ll definitely look myself online, but if you guys have something you suggest (hopefully cheap, lol) I’d appreciate that input.
I would be using the crimper for both RG6/59 connectors and RCA connectors.

I wired about 12 coax drops in my small single story home configured as a star from a distribution point in my attic using about 500 feet of RG6-QS. I have had great results delivering cable (including internet), UHF antenna for OTA HD and FM antenna (antennas in the attic) via the QS. (I amplify the antennas and put in just enough splitters for each of the three sources, i.e., all drops not currently in use aren't connected so there are no unterminated cables that are live). (I also wired cat 6 for my network throughout, but not relevant here). I can now have any of the sources in any room (except baths!)

The F connectors for QS are definitely different. I used the Ideal Compression F connectors at Home Depot. #89-056 is for QS fifty pack. (Home Depot also carries the regular RG-6. RG-6 QS connectors have black plastic, RG-6 have blue, so they are easy to distinguish).

I used the Ideal #30-603 Compression Tool (also made by Ideal and purchased at Home Depot). I also recommend buying the stripper for this, mine is also Ideal, but don't have model # handy, it will make it go quicker and cleaner.

It will take some practice to get good results. Follow the instructions carefully. I wasted quite a few connectors learning how to get it right. By the end of the project my hands were pretty sore, even using the right tools.

The #30-603 will work for RG6, RG6QS, RG59 and RCA connectors, you just have to get the correct connectors for use with this tool. It won't do BNC, if you need that there is the XL version. I don't recommend the Economy Compression tool or any of the sort that rely on your squeeze pressure to compress.

It was worth it since I have great signals to all my house for anything delievered via Coax.

 

[ErinH]

The F connectors for QS are definitely different. I used the Ideal Compression F connectors at Home Depot. #89-056 is for QS fifty pack. (Home Depot also carries the regular RG-6. RG-6 QS connectors have black plastic, RG-6 have blue, so they are easy to distinguish).

I used the Ideal #30-603 Compression Tool (also made by Ideal and purchased at Home Depot). I also recommend buying the stripper for this, mine is also Ideal, but don't have model # handy, it will make it go quicker and cleaner.

It will take some practice to get good results. Follow the instructions carefully. I wasted quite a few connectors learning how to get it right. By the end of the project my hands were pretty sore, even using the right tools.

The #30-603 will work for RG6, RG6QS, RG59 and RCA connectors, you just have to get the correct connectors for use with this tool. It won't do BNC, if you need that there is the XL version. I don't recommend the Economy Compression tool or any of the sort that rely on your squeeze pressure to compress.

It was worth it since I have great signals to all my house for anything delievered via Coax.

Thanks for that info!

I’m actually trying to find a decent crimping tool for a fair price. Monoprice actually sells some that don’t look too shabby. This was was even compared to the Ideal tool you're talking about by a customer:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10509&cs_id=1050902&p_id=3357&seq=1&format=4#feedback

The biggest issue is finding cheap compression connectors. Solder connectors aren’t too expensive; the cheapest compression connectors I’m fidning are nearly $1.00 more each. :/

 

[BMXTRIX]

Compression connectors are industry standard and are right around a buck a pop. They are built really well and will basically last forever. While it is up to you, I would consider how much you are spending on the overall project and how much it makes sense to take care of things right this time around.

I would also very seriously recommend that you consider getting into far more detail about what you are looking to accomplish throughout your entire home and what is actually open and available to run wires to.

The biggest thing I recommend and push for customers is that they should be running conduit throughout their space if at all possible. Running conduit is the ONLY true way to future proof your system and setup. If a cable is damaged, or a new tech comes along to replace an old tech, you will have the access you need to get the new cabling in place without cutting a single hole in the drywall.

Consider not just what you KNOW you want to do, but consider what you 'might' want to do. How about distributed audio to all the rooms? How about speakers in the ceilings everywhere? How about control from keypads by each door?

All that takes is a few hundred bucks of wire pulled NOW and you can do whatever you want later on.

I've got a fairly extensive setup in my home with a control system (Crestron), and I included CAT-5 for control of my fireplace, shades, thermostats, on top of audio and video wiring throughout my home. Conduit was a huge thing I put in, and I still ran into some mistakes.

Perhaps my biggest mistake was not running conduit from the entry point of cabling in my home to my A/V equipment rack and not running conduit from my electrical box (garage) to my basement.

It's great to be able to ask some of the basic questions and get good answers, but you will never get this opportunity again - ONE SHOT! - make the most of it.

Also - don't forget to take about 200 or more photos of every single room, wall, ceiling, floor, etc. before drywall goes up. If you do need to cut into something later you can reference the photos to see where joists actually fall and what potential issues you could run into.

I took about 80 of my home and realize now that I wish I had taken a bunch more.

 

[ee4hire]

I’m actually trying to find a decent crimping tool for a fair price. Monoprice actually sells some that don’t look too shabby. This was was even compared to the Ideal tool you're talking about by a customer:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10509&cs_id=1050902&p_id=3357&seq=1&format=4#feedback:/

That's a huge savings, certainly worth a try.

The biggest issue is finding cheap compression connectors. Solder connectors aren’t too expensive; the cheapest compression connectors I’m fidning are nearly $1.00 more each. :/

The connectors I used have now been discontinued by Ideal, but on a quick web search I found the Ideal OmniCONN F connectors for RG6 Quad at $0.60 a piece in the 50 pack. These are for use with the same crimp tool, so hopefully the Monoprice unit will work too.

Good luck and please post how well the tool works for you.

 

[businessjeff]

I install both cable and Satellite for Brighthouse and Direct Tv as a contractor, the quadsheild will most definitely be nice against protection against RFI/EMI. Other than that thats about all you need to worry about unless doing runs over 150 ft.

As far as the fittings go, the only difference is that QS cable is fatter, thus needs a slightly bigger Inner Diam. fitting, its not hard to figure out. Ones red, ones blue and ones black... If you try to put a blue fitting on the QS cable it wont fit..

If you want to be cool like my friend you can wire your house with RG-11... but really its such a waste. Most all the wire hype is, but the QS does help protect it.
http://www.atechfabrication.com/products/coaxial_cable.htm


This is both a reason behind which QS helps and a very important suggestion, DONT RUN PARALLEL within 5" oh any house wires!! This is where the QS shines tho.

 

[businessjeff]

about the fittings again, a bag of 100 run about $10-11, you can get them in blue, red and black as mentioned above.

Spool of 1000" runs at bulk pricing $55, cheapest ive ever found! and thats having to buy local, freight is to much to buy online. but a single spool should be about $70

Remember that you might want to run 2 coax lines to every wall plate, DTV DVR's have 2 tuners needing independent lines from the switch, so to be on the save side for future planning, just run 2, it really doesnt cost much more.
I charge $85 to wallfish a line, that can buy you a whole spool of wire..

Always leave about 2-3' of slack for every line in the wall, if not more even.

How many lines are you running? They cant be split from beyond the switch, you can get 6x8 multiswitches and daisy chain 2 of them for a total 16 outs.

Run 4 lines going in to your access room for the Satellite.

Anything else?

 

[highfigh]

I install both cable and Satellite for Brighthouse and Direct Tv as a contractor, the quadsheild will most definitely be nice against protection against RFI/EMI. Other than that thats about all you need to worry about unless doing runs over 150 ft.

As far as the fittings go, the only difference is that QS cable is fatter, thus needs a slightly bigger Inner Diam. fitting, its not hard to figure out. Ones red, ones blue and ones black... If you try to put a blue fitting on the QS cable it wont fit..

If you want to be cool like my friend you can wire your house with RG-11... but really its such a waste. Most all the wire hype is, but the QS does help protect it.
http://www.atechfabrication.com/products/coaxial_cable.htm[

Does your friend do C-band?

 

[ErinH]

I install both cable and Satellite for Brighthouse and Direct Tv as a contractor, the quadsheild will most definitely be nice against protection against RFI/EMI. Other than that thats about all you need to worry about unless doing runs over 150 ft.

Thanks for that info.

about the fittings again, a bag of 100 run about $10-11, you can get them in blue, red and black as mentioned above.

Spool of 1000" runs at bulk pricing $55, cheapest ive ever found! and thats having to buy local, freight is to much to buy online. but a single spool should be about $70

Remember that you might want to run 2 coax lines to every wall plate, DTV DVR's have 2 tuners needing independent lines from the switch, so to be on the save side for future planning, just run 2, it really doesnt cost much more.
I charge $85 to wallfish a line, that can buy you a whole spool of wire..

Always leave about 2-3' of slack for every line in the wall, if not more even.

How many lines are you running? They cant be split from beyond the switch, you can get 6x8 multiswitches and daisy chain 2 of them for a total 16 outs.

Run 4 lines going in to your access room for the Satellite.

Anything else?

Thanks to you, too.

I already purchased that solid copper QS for $85 on ebay. I thought that was a pretty good deal. Most of the QS I was seeing cheaper than that was not solid copper core, and from the bit posted here and what I also saw on some searching I'd done, solid copper core was the most important aspect.


We have about 5 rooms in the house. I know 3 of these will have HD, but I'd like to split the HT room off one of the other two rooms since I just don't see us using a 3rd box for the HT room on it's own. I don't mind having the box in another room where it can be used in dual setups.

The DTV rep I spoke with said they'd run the main line from the A/V closet out to the satellite. I couldn't get them to give me a solid # on how many to run. I guess I'll just let them do that. I'm installing 3/4" conduit in the wall so they can make those drops into the A/V closet on their own, then.

I did go ahead and run 4 lines of the QS down to the main breaker per their suggestions. They said I needed 4 from the A/V closet to the house's main electrical box.

 

[BadAsCan]

I'm sure this has died out by now but just in case it hasn't please avoid any kind of "daisy chaining" when it comes to cable tv unless you use the proper directional couplers. Center conductor material doesn't matter too much because the signal travels on the outside of the conductor. RG-6 is just fine in most any applications but with all of todays wireless signals floating around I would opt for Quad Sheilded cable. For those of you who want the best cable, I would recommend cable designated "HEQ", rather than QS. If you're that damn paranoid than get HEQ.

 

[highfigh]

We have about 5 rooms in the house. I know 3 of these will have HD, but I'd like to split the HT room off one of the other two rooms since I just don't see us using a 3rd box for the HT room on it's own. I don't mind having the box in another room where it can be used in dual setups.

The DTV rep I spoke with said they'd run the main line from the A/V closet out to the satellite. I couldn't get them to give me a solid # on how many to run. I guess I'll just let them do that. I'm installing 3/4" conduit in the wall so they can make those drops into the A/V closet on their own, then.

I did go ahead and run 4 lines of the QS down to the main breaker per their suggestions. They said I needed 4 from the A/V closet to the house's main electrical box.

You may not see using a third box but that could change, or you may end up moving things later.

3/4" is too small if you're having satellite TV installed. While 4 cables may fit at the opening of the conduit, pulling 4 through a 3/4" sleeve is a biatch. 1" would be the minimum size for that- larger is better.

Why is this being rin to the electrical breaker box- so everything can be grounded properly? (kind of a trick question, since the Electric Code requires that any phone, cable or satellite feeds are grounded at the point of demarcation, either to the conduit drop from the meter box outside, to a grounding clip on the breaker panel or to a copper water supply pipe). If it's not done, you have no lightning protection at all. If you see that this hasn't been grounded, remind them of it. It's Article 25, IIRC.

 

[Rickster71]

3/4" is too small if you're having satellite TV installed. While 4 cables may fit at the opening of the conduit, pulling 4 through a 3/4" sleeve is a biatch. 1" would be the minimum size for that- larger is better.

I thought the same thing. Good catch Highfigh.

The Electric Code requires that any phone, cable or satellite feeds are grounded at the point of demarcation
If you see that this hasn't been grounded, remind them of it. It's Article 25, IIRC.

Agree. I think you mean Article 250

 

[highfigh]

I thought the same thing. Good catch Highfigh.




Agree. I think you mean Article 250

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how the conduit is routed. If it's straight, fine but flexible conduit should be run with gentle bends, never tight ones. Tight radius bends increases friction and makes it really hard to pull wires.

It probably is 250- it's not in front of me and I haven't read it in a while. Thanks for the correction.

With my luck, Article 25 probably covers lighting for a porn movie or a disco ball.

 

[ErinH]

just to clarify, I'm using 2 pieces of 3/4". A single 1" would work as well. But, I have tons of scrap 3/4".

Yea, they said to run it from the A/V panel to the 'ground' (ie: main box).

 

[highfigh]

just to clarify, I'm using 2 pieces of 3/4". A single 1" would work as well. But, I have tons of scrap 3/4".

Yea, they said to run it from the A/V panel to the 'ground' (ie: main box).

Ideally, you want the cable to take the shortest route, so if you can, bring the sat feed in as close to the electrical service entrance. You won't have a long run for the ground (which needs to be as short as possible) and if the AV panel is right next to the breaker panel, life is good.

 

[businessjeff]

Ideally, you want the cable to take the shortest route, so if you can, bring the sat feed in as close to the electrical service entrance. You won't have a long run for the ground (which needs to be as short as possible) and if the AV panel is right next to the breaker panel, life is good.

Kind of but to elaborate more, the main reason isj ust simple, less work less cable...


None of this matters much though, even with your grounding. You can ground to any water line or if need be put in a ground rod to ground to.

Heres what you want to do (imo)
1) Like I said b4, run 2 dedicated lines from your panel to each room leaving slack at both points (about 3 ft) That way if you ever want DVR's you have both lines (they require two independent lines.

2) As far as lines going from the panel room out to the dish, you can ground it in there if you want, since its bare walls, you can run a ground wire into the wall plugs ground, its your best bet. They make ground blocks with 4 barrels on them. Use them, Like I said b4, run 4 lines out to the dish. HD Satellites have 4 lines that come off the L and B.

3) as far as placement and where to run these lines, your Sate needs a clear shot of the Southwestern sky @ a 37 degree angle (not that steep) Hows your SW view? any trees? If not then put it as close to your AV panel room you can, run them down the side of your house, I guess if you want to use conduit you can.. no reason though, they will be protected from UV and last forever. I think they are called "Jakes"?? The 90 degree elbows to go into your house, also, that gray pvc is for electrical.