Center Channel: Yamaha NS-C310BL VS Infinity Primus PC351

[tenshi]

Hi all, I'm piecing a mid-level stereo system for a relatively small penthouse living room (approx 175 square feet). I'm putting this together one element at a time. I've been doing my research, and I have already purchased:

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR515
Bookshelf Speakers: Infinity Primus P163BK x2
Subwoofer: BIC America F12 12" Sub

The next Step is a center channel speaker. I think I have narrowed it down to the following models:

Yamaha NS-C310BL

and

Infinity Primus PC351

Both have excellent reviews and are highly rated. I'm leaning toward the Yamaha NS-C310BL based on the reviews that I have read, but I wonder if the Infinity Primus PC351 might pair better with the Infinity Primus P163BK speakers that I already have. I would greatly appreciate any guidance (or even alternatives) on the matter.

 

[Grador]

ALWAYS go with the center that matches your main speakers if at all possible. Contemplate this scenario: You're watching a movie and a helicopter flies from left to right, going from left speaker to center to right. As it does so the sound of the helicopter changes dramatically as it goes to the center because the center is voiced differently than the mains.

 

[j_garcia]

What he said. You can get away with different brand/family of speaker for surrounds, but across the front you really want them to match.

 

[tenshi]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'd still be interested to know if anyone else out there agrees or disagrees. Any qualms with the Infinity center channel speaker?

The last component will be rear speakers, though I'm in no hurry. Is it considered bad to mismatch front and rear speakers as well? I'd prefer not to get something smaller than than my front bookshelf speakers that can be easily and unobtrusively wall-mounted.

 

[j_garcia]

I had and sold my P163s. They were a pretty solid speaker, they were just a bit large for what I needed. I think at least one regular member here has or had the matching center and liked it. Not that Yamaha isn't OK, but I think the matching center is still a better bet.

For surrounds, as I already mentioned, you can definitely get away with it a lot more than with the front three.

 

[htgeek]

As already stated, it is best to stay with a particular brand and series within that brand for a front stage. Of course I have seen many that don't with varied results some good and some not so good. The point being that for best most consistent results stick with what works. All my speakers are Infinity and I have that center, slightly modified with better acoustic material but basically the same. I can tell you that it will shine with your bookshelves. I use it with towers and from tower to tower it's 13'2" apart with the center dead ,well, center and all tweeters at ear height it keeps the front image rock solid. It's a great center. I have been throwing the idea around of getting two more and setting them up in a vertical LCR configuration, just a good all around speaker.

 

[jm78]

Another p163 would be your best option. But most don't want to use a vertical bookshelf for center. I would even take a p153 vertical too. Even sideways, I think I would still take a p163 over the pc351. And I would surely take a pc351 over the other center you are considering. Match the front speakers line, whatever you do at least.

I just clicked the yamaha link, that horizontal speaker looks like a mess, MMTMM. Must sound terrible for dialogue.

 

[jm78]

Move your two p163's to the back.

Get one more p163, set it vertical. Get two p363's, put them up front, the best bang for your buck towers under $400, IMO. You can come back and thank me after you start listening to crystal clear dialogue on and off axis.

 

[tenshi]

I've not seen anyone else suggest that a third bookshelf speaker would be superior to the speaker specifically designed for the center. Can anyone else comment on this?

As for the towers, I was reading up on the forums and I found quite a number of audiophiles (maybe even the majority) preferred the bookshelf/sub setup over the tower setup. The reason for this, of course, is that, when paired with a nice sub, you can get better frequency isolation and the setup can be more finely tuned. I already have them paired with a great sub that I can't even turn up past 30% volume without rattling the crap out of my cabinet. Now I just need a center channel to match the quality of what I already have.

I should also mention that I'm much more interested in quality and clarity of sound reproduction than in volume. I listen to a lot of music and i"m more interested in having the rich, warm sound of acoustic instruments than in rattling the walls with electronic bass.

 

[Grador]

In general a center channel is a compromise of design in order to get a speaker that is a more appropriate shape to use over/under a TV. Using 3 identical speakers is preferable if it is possible.

 

[tenshi]

Well, buying an extra P163 bookshelf speaker is certainly a much cheaper option, and amazon doesn't want to ship the PC351 to Puerto Rico (always a roulette wheel with shipping). That is a tempting option. I only wish I had purchased a third speaker when they were $85 apiece.

I was looking at some other forums. A lot of people seem to agree with the bookshelf > dedicated center channel sentiment. The one argument that I found against it had to do with positioning. If you are not sitting directly on center line with the center channel, I several people claim that the dedicated center channels sound better (i.e. when you're off to the left or right of the center channel). I must confess that I will regularly be off center.

I was also trying to figure out the difference between the PC251 and the PC351:

Amazon.com: Infinity Primus PC251 Two-way dual 5-1/4-Inch Speaker (Each, Center-Channel, Black): Electronics

Amazon.com: Infinity Primus PC351 Three-way dual 5-1/4-Inch Speaker (Each, Center-Channel, Black): Electronics

Obviously, the PC351 has two additional speakers, however they are the exact same price. What would be the practical difference between the two, and would it even be better to go with the PC251 ?

Thanks again for all of your comments, and thanks in advance for any additional advice.

 

[htgeek]

Three identical speakers is how they do it in theaters. It will provide a more uniform front sound stage. But the design of the infinity is a great compromise! The one that corrects most of the issues that MTM horizontal center designs inherently have. Most if not all matching higher end centers have this configuration but you'll be hard pressed to find many at this price point. Also just because it was designed to be a horizontal speaker doesn't mean you have to use it that way. All anyone can really say is experiment and see what sounds good to you. Sometimes we have to choose esthetics over acoustics and there are too many variables to come up with definitive answers for our hobby. We have basic scientific premise to start from but after that it gets grey. I've been on this quest for about 16 years and learned from a guy who has been on the same one for about 40+ years and am learning not to get to serious about opinions about how things "should" or "must" be to enjoy my system. Not that proper understanding and research isn't invaluable and getting advice from those who came before you is indispensable. Just enjoy the ride too.

 

[jm78]

I've not seen anyone else suggest that a third bookshelf speaker would be superior to the speaker specifically designed for the center. Can anyone else comment on this?

As for the towers, I was reading up on the forums and I found quite a number of audiophiles (maybe even the majority) preferred the bookshelf/sub setup over the tower setup. The reason for this, of course, is that, when paired with a nice sub, you can get better frequency isolation and the setup can be more finely tuned. I already have them paired with a great sub that I can't even turn up past 30% volume without rattling the crap out of my cabinet. Now I just need a center channel to match the quality of what I already have.

I should also mention that I'm much more interested in quality and clarity of sound reproduction than in volume. I listen to a lot of music and i"m more interested in having the rich, warm sound of acoustic instruments than in rattling the walls with electronic bass.

There are plenty of articles for you to check out, right here on audioholics which talk about center channel speakers. You have not seen much people recommend a 3rd bookshelf as a center because they are unwilling to compromise on space or they simply to do not know the benefits of vertical driver arrangement opposed to the often horrible typical MTM horizontal centers. The p363 is a way better speaker than the p163, no question about it. You say you care about music, then get the p363. I like listening in 2.1, I have the same subwoofer as you, the bic f12.

I would not sacrifice my p363 up front to have identical p163 for LCR. I could easily move my p163 from surround to front, but not gonna happen. Sure the pc351 is a decent horizontal center. I used to have the previous pc350 center. It was alright but nothing compared to vertical p163.

You can go ahead and listen to others who haven't tried both or go listen for yourself. Most won't be willing to compromise on space with a vertical bookshelf. The best would be a 3rd p363 in the center for my setup, but even I'm not willing to have my plasma tv that high.

 

[jm78]

Whatever you decide, just please don't get that yamaha center with the p163's. That would be the worst decision out of what was recommended so far.

Dedicated centers will sound worse on axis AND off axis. Whoever said that a dedicated center sounds better off axis is totally wrong. Wider is not better, it's worse.

 

[tenshi]

Well, buying an extra P163 bookshelf speaker is certainly a much cheaper option, and amazon doesn't want to ship the PC351 to Puerto Rico (always a roulette wheel with shipping). That is a tempting option. I only wish I had purchased a third speaker when they were $85 apiece.

I was looking at some other forums. A lot of people seem to agree with the bookshelf > dedicated center channel sentiment. The one argument that I found against it had to do with positioning. If you are not sitting directly on center line with the center channel, I several people claim that the dedicated center channels sound better (i.e. when you're off to the left or right of the center channel).

I was also trying to figure out the difference between the PC251 and the PC351:

Amazon.com: Infinity Primus PC251 Two-way dual 5-1/4-Inch Speaker (Each, Center-Channel, Black): Electronics

Amazon.com: Infinity Primus PC351 Three-way dual 5-1/4-Inch Speaker (Each, Center-Channel, Black): Electronics

Obviously, the PC351 has two additional speakers, however they are the exact same price. What would be the practical difference between the two, and would it even be better to go with the PC251 ?

Thanks again for all of your comments, and thanks in advance for any additional advice.

 

[jm78]

Dedicated centers sound terrible off center, you should ignore what those people have to say, they are dead wrong. That is one of the biggest downsides to horizontal centers, terrible off axis quality.

Go read some articles, the articles can explain a lot better than I can. The only reason to go with horizontal center is to save on height. One other reason is maybe slightly more output compared to another bookshelf in the same line, if the dedicated center is much larger than the bookshelf it's being compared to. Other than that horizontal centers have many negatives.

Go ahead and try to find me one article that supports what those other people are saying that touts the fantastic horizontal center speakers and why we should all use them. LOL, it will be a good read.

 

[jm78]

Here some reading material: Horizontal Center Channel Speakers and Why They Should Be Avoided - Blu-ray Forum