Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[Will Brink]

Biden expanded background checks. WRT gun shows, "There were none" only applies to non-Federal Firearm License holders- private sellers haven't been required to involve an application unless they, as the article says "Dealers have previously been required to join the federal system only if they derived their chief livelihood from selling weapons. The bar is much lower now — the government has to prove only that they sold guns to “predominantly derive a profit” from their actions.". This needs to be defined better if it's to do any good.

This will save a few lives, but what does he want to do about the guns sold by criminals TO criminals?

The article also includes "Four in 10 illegal gun cases tracked by the bureau from 2017 to 2021 involved such unregulated sales, including thousands from shadow dealers who used legal loopholes to evade background checks, according to an analysis of firearms trafficking released last week."- that's great, but gangs and others will absolutely not start reporting to the ATF or FBI as they continue to move guns around the country. A gun can be bought quickly, cheaply and without anyone but the ones involved in the transaction knowing anything about it. THOSE won't be stopped and they contribute to far more deaths than the guns sold at shows.

The article contains "the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives will require anyone “engaged in the business” of selling guns at a profit to register as a federally licensed firearms dealer. That means those sellers must run background criminal and mental health checks on potential buyers."- that has been the case for quite awhile- it's not new. However, a private individual or dealer can't look into someone's health of any kind, independently- medical record privacy is protected and they (dealers) need to request this info.

That said, I think it's too easy for an applicant for gun purchase to lie about drug/alcohol addiction, mental illness and other details on the 4473. Addicts lie- it's what they do, so everyone needs to meet some level of testing results in order to buy a weapon.

I also don't have a problem with needing to be trained. Flailing around with a loaded gun is no way to handle a situation.

But, the US doesn't seem to be interested in helping people with mental illness and because many of those with various mental illness types have violent tendencies, they find ways to obtain weapons and we read about/see the results every damned day.

Biden Administration Approves Expansion of Background Checks on Gun Sales

The new rule, which is likely to face legal challenges, is an attempt to regulate a fast-growing shadow market of weapons that has fueled gun violence.

www.nytimes.com

This is them playing with the numbers to sound more dramatic, similar to including teenage gang bangers in their "children dying from firearms" numbers. Actual guns purchased at a gun show via private parties that don't require a background check that are used in crimes is very low via fed numbers, I recall under 5% but don't quote me on that one. Gonna read the ATF doc asap as obviously once can't use the NYT as a reliable source for any topic, much less the gun topic.

 

[David_Alexander]

The US has an issue with gun culture and crime. The rates of knife murder are roughly comparable between UK and US at 0.48 and 0.49 per 100,000.

But for gun murder it's 0.03 UK vs 3.6 US per 100,000 a 120 fold increase in the chance of being gunned down in the US.

In the UK when we had (rare) incidences of mass shootings (e.g., Hungerford and Dunblaine) massacres our government tightened up gun laws. There was no great fuss about this.

The UK and US are not different in terms of law or democratic values. It's just that there's a fascination with guns in the US that needs addressing if you want to reduce your gun homicide rates.

 

[dlaloum]

If US people want to see what is possible with gun controls, education, etc... they can look at a plethora of nations alll over the world, UK, Australia, Switzerland...

No other "western" nation has the issues with Guns that the US does - yet the US always looks inwards for solutions, never outwards.... Look at the way gun controls failed in X... (X being a state or a city... not isolated from the rest of the nation).

The problem is that the US perspective is always so US centric... there are lots of proven solutions.

 

[highfigh]

The US has an issue with gun culture and crime. The rates of knife murder are roughly comparable between UK and US at 0.48 and 0.49 per 100,000.

But for gun murder it's 0.03 UK vs 3.6 US per 100,000 a 120 fold increase in the chance of being gunned down in the US.

In the UK when we had (rare) incidences of mass shootings (e.g., Hungerford and Dunblaine) massacres our government tightened up gun laws. There was no great fuss about this.

The UK and US are not different in terms of law or democratic values. It's just that there's a fascination with guns in the US that needs addressing if you want to reduce your gun homicide rates.

But the chance of being shot isn't the same in all areas.

If you're saying that gun crimes occur across all segments of the population, keep looking- FBI stats show a very different picture. The vast majority of armed crimes are committed by people who have the guns illegally. The other side of that coin is that far too many legal gun owners are stupid and careless when it comes to gun storage in their homes and in fact, many guns are left unsecured in vehicles.

If anyone thinks the people in the UK and US are the same, it's because of denial and naivety.

 

[highfigh]

If US people want to see what is possible with gun controls, education, etc... they can look at a plethora of nations alll over the world, UK, Australia, Switzerland...

No other "western" nation has the issues with Guns that the US does - yet the US always looks inwards for solutions, never outwards.... Look at the way gun controls failed in X... (X being a state or a city... not isolated from the rest of the nation).

The problem is that the US perspective is always so US centric... there are lots of proven solutions.

What is needed in the US isn't the same as what's needed in any other place- read the last comment in my other post. If you disagree, show why but look into the facts, first.

 

[dlaloum]

What is needed in the US isn't the same as what's needed in any other place- read the last comment in my other post. If you disagree, show why but look into the facts, first.

The reason the US situation is different, is because a wide range of controls are not in place... that then boosts the number of illegal guns in circulation.

We have illegal guns in circulation here in Australia, same for every country in the world - but why is the number per capita so much higher in the US - because the US has not put into place all the controls.

Someone walking down the road carrying a gun or rifle, would quickly get stopped by the authorities and asked for their legal reasons.... (in most cases it would be illegal even when guns are legal).
Where most weapons are substantially controlled, it becomes much more difficult owning a firearm...

And it need not be "lets put all the controls in place at one time" - the process can be gradual...

But there are huge cultural issues - the whole "guns are a right" politics.... no one anywhere else in the world considers guns a right.... everywhere else they are a priviledge, and a limited one, granted with specific conditions.... - this is the core issue that the US is battling.

 

[highfigh]

The reason the US situation is different, is because a wide range of controls are not in place... that then boosts the number of illegal guns in circulation.

We have illegal guns in circulation here in Australia, same for every country in the world - but why is the number per capita so much higher in the US - because the US has not put into place all the controls.

Someone walking down the road carrying a gun or rifle, would quickly get stopped by the authorities and asked for their legal reasons.... (in most cases it would be illegal even when guns are legal).
Where most weapons are substantially controlled, it becomes much more difficult owning a firearm...

And it need not be "lets put all the controls in place at one time" - the process can be gradual...

But there are huge cultural issues - the whole "guns are a right" politics.... no one anywhere else in the world considers guns a right.... everywhere else they are a priviledge, and a limited one, granted with specific conditions.... - this is the core issue that the US is battling.

The US has people whose culture influences their activities and they really like to gain 'street cred'. This isn't one group- it's anyone who wants it. Also, there's a large segment of the population who believe in the 'Rules are made to be broken' idea, so they do and at every opportunity. Then, there are the repeat offenders.

Do you ever wonder what would happen if the population in AU was as high as it is in the US? The US is about 28% larger in area, but has more than 12 times the population, many people in high density. That alone causes problems.
Even in the least populated areas in your country over its history, I'm not sure it would be the same as the Wild West of the past. Various countries have different histories, so it's hard to make a direct comparison but a couple of things that ARE different between AU and the US- your country didn't revolt against the Crown in the same way and it didn't have a Civil War that involved slavery. Lots of bad attitudes remain from the latter.

Our Bill of Rights is less about what we can do, it's more about what the government CAN'T do.

However, I have serious problems with the way guns have been marketed, how the NRA has made people twitch and become heroes, soldiers, cowboys and Rambo in their own minds. Criminality/gang membership have caused huge numbers of shootings for at least 50 years here and I doubt AU has the same problems in that regard.

Sorry to see that someone pulled that crap over the weekend- a similar incident, said to be gang-related, occurred in Chicago, with guns.

Chicago mass shooting: New details released after child killed, 10 wounded on South Side

Chicago police released new details after a child was killed and 10 other people were wounded at a family gathering on the South Side Saturday night.

www.fox32chicago.com

It all comes down to incredibly bad decisions, by bad people. People are sick of the killings, but those who actually know the ones doing it aren't doing much to prevent it.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The US has people whose culture influences their activities and they really like to gain 'street cred'. This isn't one group- it's anyone who wants it. Also, there's a large segment of the population who believe in the 'Rules are made to be broken' idea, so they do and at every opportunity. Then, there are the repeat offenders.

Do you ever wonder what would happen if the population in AU was as high as it is in the US? The US is about 28% larger in area, but has more than 12 times the population, many people in high density. That alone causes problems.
Even in the least populated areas in your country over its history, I'm not sure it would be the same as the Wild West of the past. Various countries have different histories, so it's hard to make a direct comparison but a couple of things that ARE different between AU and the US- your country didn't revolt against the Crown in the same way and it didn't have a Civil War that involved slavery. Lots of bad attitudes remain from the latter.

Our Bill of Rights is less about what we can do, it's more about what the government CAN'T do.

However, I have serious problems with the way guns have been marketed, how the NRA has made people twitch and become heroes, soldiers, cowboys and Rambo in their own minds. Criminality/gang membership have caused huge numbers of shootings for at least 50 years here and I doubt AU has the same problems in that regard.

Sorry to see that someone pulled that crap over the weekend- a similar incident, said to be gang-related, occurred in Chicago, with guns.

Chicago mass shooting: New details released after child killed, 10 wounded on South Side

Chicago police released new details after a child was killed and 10 other people were wounded at a family gathering on the South Side Saturday night.

www.fox32chicago.com

It all comes down to incredibly bad decisions, by bad people. People are sick of the killings, but those who actually know the ones doing it aren't doing much to prevent it.

The population density of the UK is 275/km^2, while the US is 35/km^2. So, that dog don't hunt. The difference contributing to the vastly different rates of gun crime is the sheer availability of firearms.

The only defence for not maintaining/increasing gun control is that it's essentially too late - the country is littered with so many guns now, that it would make little/no difference.

 

[eljr]

I don't want this to become a 'Democrat vs Republican' thing, I would like to see reasoned comments and responses without turning to insults.

I have mentioned that Milwaukee is an example of a badly-run city but even if the city leaders have the best of intentions behind them, some people don't care and will do what they want, when they want and they don't care if it's illegal.

This happened late Sunday evening and it's the kind of event that can occur when people who shouldn't have access to guns, do. If you listen, it sounds like automatic gunfire at times and those weapons are already heavily regulated/taxed and access is much more difficult than most other guns.

Over 300 shots fired at Midtown Center gathering, injuring two, capping violent weekend in Milwaukee

Several people fired over 300 shots around 11:30 p.m. Sunday in the packed parking lot, injuring two men, 21 and 23.

www.jsonline.com

My thoughts on what will help to decrease needless gun deaths-

- More/better care for people with mental illness
- The courts need to prevent access to guns and remove guns from people who have made threats (see the link about the casino shootings at the bottom)
- The Courts need to grow a set and hold people with violent past when they're arrested for violent crimes
-People need to accept the fact that they know someone with mental illness and that care is needed- lose the stigma
- People who are afraid of guns need to realize that guns do nothing on their own and while the fear may be justified, these people shouldn't be in a position to make policy regarding them but could/should be part of the overall discussion.
-People need to stop getting attention when spewing information that's not accurate and they need to be corrected when they get that attention because it mis-informs others, often leading to a frenzied response.

Oneida Casino shooting: Three dead, including gunman; one person seriously injured

None of this needs to happen- people have to stop resorting to violence as one of their first reactions to anger.

The ansewer to your thread cap is no.
Hope this helps!

 

[Mikado463]

The population density of the UK is 275/km^2, while the US is 35/km^2. So, that dog don't hunt.

come on, that's an 'apples to oranges' comparison and you know it ! far and away the majority of gun related crime is committed within US cities where the US has plenty of 'density' !

Highfi's bullet points 2 & 3 speak volumes IMO ........

 

[GO-NAD!]

come on, that's an 'apples to oranges' comparison and you know it ! far and away the majority of gun related crime is committed within US cities where the US has plenty of 'density' !

Highfi's bullet points 2 & 3 speak volumes IMO ........

You're missing my point, because that is the point! Population density doesn't explain the difference in gun crime rates.

 

[Mikado463]

You're missing my point, because that is the point! Population density doesn't explain the difference in gun crime rates.

Ok, roger, my bad !

 

[highfigh]

The population density of the UK is 275/km^2, while the US is 35/km^2. So, that dog don't hunt. The difference contributing to the vastly different rates of gun crime is the sheer availability of firearms.

The only defence for not maintaining/increasing gun control is that it's essentially too late - the country is littered with so many guns now, that it would make little/no difference.

It's not the number of people, it's their character, or lack thereof.

The media sensationalizing some events and not others skews the perception outside of the US- if you read or heard anything about Milwaukee, Chicago, Seattle and Los Angeles recently, I doubt any of it was good. Certainly not in Milwaukee, where some have reached new lows, but not at the same level as in some years. We have some who are mentally ill to an extent that shouldn't be possible because they shouldn't be in public.

UK has a total of roughly 57 million people- only two cities have population over one million and the US has nine. You can't consider open land in this because the problems are in the cities, same as in UK- what's the point of using vast open areas when almost nobody lives there. If you consider the more populated areas in the UK, you would see a different picture.

The UK has far more history and the US is a punk kid, by comparison and the education systems are totally different- here, far too many decide that there's nothing for them in school, so they drop out and become gang members, drop out completely and end up as a burden on society. In the UK, it's more likely that dropouts will gain a skill and when the dropouts are in the numbers we have here, things go bad, in a hurry.

And you still can't admit that people are the problem. In order for this to improve, people need to improve.

As an example- in the US, 1,020,729 were stolen in 2023, many in armed carjackings.

Vehicle Thefts Surge Nationwide in 2023 | National Insurance Crime Bureau

www.nicb.org

Check the second link- it shows that many crimes decreased, only carjacking and drug offenses increased, the latter by a much smaller percentage. Fentanyl and a few other drugs are now the most frequent. Check Homicides- down almost 10%, another link shows ->13%.

Crime Trends in U.S. Cities: Mid-Year 2023 Update - Council on Criminal Justice

Crime Trends in U.S. Cities: Mid-Year 2023 Update July 2023 Ernesto Lopez Research Specialist, Council on Criminal Justice Richard Rosenfeld Chair, Council on Criminal Justice Crime Trends Working Group Curators’ Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Criminology and Criminal Justice, University of...

counciloncj.org

 

[highfigh]

You're missing my point, because that is the point! Population density doesn't explain the difference in gun crime rates.

Look at crime rates in highly populated areas and compare them to places with fewer people, especially in low income spots, if you even have anything similar where you live. People in those areas start the day pissed off, go outside and it's not too long before someone does something to make their day worse. This can happen very early and it can be from an argument at a fast food place when they're trying to buy breakfast. Then, someone flees from the police and rams their car, a school bus, pedestrian or whatever- they couldn't afford to buy a decent car and now, some A-hole rammed theirs, possibly injuring them/others and often killing the ones who did nothing more than drive on a certain street. Piss off another driver? Sure, that's resulting in gunfire more and more. Are the shooters carrying legally? Not likely. Do they serve time? Not usually, unless something special happens.

 

[dlaloum]

The US has people whose culture influences their activities and they really like to gain 'street cred'. This isn't one group- it's anyone who wants it. Also, there's a large segment of the population who believe in the 'Rules are made to be broken' idea, so they do and at every opportunity. Then, there are the repeat offenders.

Do you ever wonder what would happen if the population in AU was as high as it is in the US? The US is about 28% larger in area, but has more than 12 times the population, many people in high density. That alone causes problems.
Even in the least populated areas in your country over its history, I'm not sure it would be the same as the Wild West of the past. Various countries have different histories, so it's hard to make a direct comparison but a couple of things that ARE different between AU and the US- your country didn't revolt against the Crown in the same way and it didn't have a Civil War that involved slavery. Lots of bad attitudes remain from the latter.

Our Bill of Rights is less about what we can do, it's more about what the government CAN'T do.

However, I have serious problems with the way guns have been marketed, how the NRA has made people twitch and become heroes, soldiers, cowboys and Rambo in their own minds. Criminality/gang membership have caused huge numbers of shootings for at least 50 years here and I doubt AU has the same problems in that regard.

Sorry to see that someone pulled that crap over the weekend- a similar incident, said to be gang-related, occurred in Chicago, with guns.

Chicago mass shooting: New details released after child killed, 10 wounded on South Side

Chicago police released new details after a child was killed and 10 other people were wounded at a family gathering on the South Side Saturday night.

www.fox32chicago.com

It all comes down to incredibly bad decisions, by bad people. People are sick of the killings, but those who actually know the ones doing it aren't doing much to prevent it.

We were on our way in that direction... until the clampdown in 1996 after a mass shooting...

Sadly firearm numbers have risen again...

 

[GO-NAD!]

It's not the number of people, it's their character, or lack thereof.

The media sensationalizing some events and not others skews the perception outside of the US- if you read or heard anything about Milwaukee, Chicago, Seattle and Los Angeles recently, I doubt any of it was good. Certainly not in Milwaukee, where some have reached new lows, but not at the same level as in some years. We have some who are mentally ill to an extent that shouldn't be possible because they shouldn't be in public.

UK has a total of roughly 57 million people- only two cities have population over one million and the US has nine. You can't consider open land in this because the problems are in the cities, same as in UK- what's the point of using vast open areas when almost nobody lives there. If you consider the more populated areas in the UK, you would see a different picture.

The UK has far more history and the US is a punk kid, by comparison and the education systems are totally different- here, far too many decide that there's nothing for them in school, so they drop out and become gang members, drop out completely and end up as a burden on society. In the UK, it's more likely that dropouts will gain a skill and when the dropouts are in the numbers we have here, things go bad, in a hurry.

And you still can't admit that people are the problem. In order for this to improve, people need to improve.

As an example- in the US, 1,020,729 were stolen in 2023, many in armed carjackings.

Vehicle Thefts Surge Nationwide in 2023 | National Insurance Crime Bureau

www.nicb.org

Check the second link- it shows that many crimes decreased, only carjacking and drug offenses increased, the latter by a much smaller percentage. Fentanyl and a few other drugs are now the most frequent. Check Homicides- down almost 10%, another link shows ->13%.

Crime Trends in U.S. Cities: Mid-Year 2023 Update - Council on Criminal Justice

Crime Trends in U.S. Cities: Mid-Year 2023 Update July 2023 Ernesto Lopez Research Specialist, Council on Criminal Justice Richard Rosenfeld Chair, Council on Criminal Justice Crime Trends Working Group Curators’ Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Criminology and Criminal Justice, University of...

counciloncj.org

I compared the population densities of the US and the UK, because you compared the US with Australia. Australia has five cities with populations over one million, so they have a very substantial amount of territory that is essentially empty of people.

Here's a little mind exercise. What if the UK had a similar right to bear arms, similar gun control regimes and similar numbers of firearms per capita? Do you think gun crime rates would not take a substantial jump? I think that there would be a huge leap. Would the rates reach those experienced in the US? Maybe not, but the shear availability of firearms would practically guarantee a large jump.

If American society is as dysfunctional as you suggest, don't you think that it speaks to the need for tighter firearms regulations - maybe even repealing the second amendment? Like, "If you can't behave yourselves like adults, we're taking away your toys!"

From a personal standpoint, my biggest beef with the flood of firearms in the US is the number being smuggled into Canada.
Most of the crime guns seized in Toronto are smuggled into Canada from U.S.: police | National Post

Toronto Deputy Chief Myron Demkiw testified 86 per cent of crime guns were smuggled into Canada.

 

[David_Alexander]

I compared the population densities of the US and the UK, because you compared the US with Australia. Australia has five cities with populations over one million, so they have a very substantial amount of territory that is essentially empty of people.

Here's a little mind exercise. What if the UK had a similar right to bear arms, similar gun control regimes and similar numbers of firearms per capita? Do you think gun crime rates would not take a substantial jump? I think that there would be a huge leap. Would the rates reach those experienced in the US? Maybe not, but the shear availability of firearms would practically guarantee a large jump.

If American society is as dysfunctional as you suggest, don't you think that it speaks to the need for tighter firearms regulations - maybe even repealing the second amendment? Like, "If you can't behave yourselves like adults, we're taking away your toys!"

From a personal standpoint, my biggest beef with the flood of firearms in the US is the number being smuggled into Canada.
Most of the crime guns seized in Toronto are smuggled into Canada from U.S.: police | National Post

You don't need a mind exercise to demonstrate this. This is demonstrated in my previous post on the knife crime numbers.
The rates of knife homicide are roughly comparable between UK and US at 0.48 and 0.49 per 100,000.
UK and US have similar access to knives, and these figures show that when UK and US populations have equal access to knives we are both as stabby as each other.
That said, UK realises the issue with knives and youths so are clamping down on Zombie style knives and already have age restrictions for purchasing knives.
But when it comes down to guns you in the US are 120x more likely to die by the gun. You can argue about densities of population and so on.

There's some US data here, it's a bit old and the one thing that has risen is the number of mass shootings for whatever reason.
Take home message, beware of your friends or acquaintances, the gun will likely get you, although your son or daughter may well beat the crap out of you.

The US will require legislation to get to grips with its gun problem. The UK was pretty much a free-for-all until after the Great War which resulted in the Firearms Act 1920, amended in 1937. This was updated in 1968 and amended in 1988 following the Hungerford mass shooting incident and again in 1997 after Dunblaine with amendments after this.

The fact that I can name the two incidences of mass shootings and one in 1990 (Cumbria NW England), so 3 in 36 years, shows you what proper regulation of firearms can achieve. It's never to late to start.

 

[cpp]

Speaking of carjackings, in the Orlando area, this is horrible https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/manhunt-for-suspect-in-violent-florida-carjacking-that-was-caught-on-camera-208933445972

 

[highfigh]

I compared the population densities of the US and the UK, because you compared the US with Australia. Australia has five cities with populations over one million, so they have a very substantial amount of territory that is essentially empty of people.

Here's a little mind exercise. What if the UK had a similar right to bear arms, similar gun control regimes and similar numbers of firearms per capita? Do you think gun crime rates would not take a substantial jump? I think that there would be a huge leap. Would the rates reach those experienced in the US? Maybe not, but the shear availability of firearms would practically guarantee a large jump.

If American society is as dysfunctional as you suggest, don't you think that it speaks to the need for tighter firearms regulations - maybe even repealing the second amendment? Like, "If you can't behave yourselves like adults, we're taking away your toys!"

From a personal standpoint, my biggest beef with the flood of firearms in the US is the number being smuggled into Canada.
Most of the crime guns seized in Toronto are smuggled into Canada from U.S.: police | National Post

I was thinking about this later in the day- for a country that has done a lot of great things, I think the US has more uncivilized people than any other developed country. THAT'S the reason this crap happens here and not in other places. However, if you look at the statistics, the US IS NOT #1 in gun deaths and the link shows this- it's from NPR, so you don't need to crap on my source.

The US has far more suicides than homicides and mass shootings, which happen far too often and for reasons that usually include "Yeah, that guy was really screwed up", don't actually happen as often as the media want us to believe. None is acceptable, one is too many.

YOU mentioned guns being smuggled into Canada, so I'll say it again- It's bad people who are responsible, not the guns!

Sadly, Australia has had two mass knife attacks, two days apart. Who was at fault, the two who attacked, or the knives? Once again, it was the attackers and the father of the first said that his son was very screwed up, mentally.

This is what happens when freedoms are important to a country with millions of messed up people I was going to call them A-holes, but we can't necessarily assume they are although gang related shootings are far too common and if you pay attention, you should notice that it's not really front & center of the conversation.

How much do you see in your area that involves Tren de Aragua and MS-13? Check that crap out.

The narrative from those who want nothing more than to have illegals allowed into the country without scrutiny completely ignores some of the problems they cause- look into those two groups.

That said, would you want to be penalized for something done by other people? I doubt it. What I want is for the criminal court system to prevent this happening because suspects were released. I want people who know and are related to someone with serious mental problems to find a way to get help.

You mentioned society being dysfuntional- that, again, is about PEOPLE, not hardware. Fix the people and the problem goes away. The hard part is, how can millions of people be fixed when it's not a one size fits all situation?

 

[highfigh]

We were on our way in that direction... until the clampdown in 1996 after a mass shooting...

Sadly firearm numbers have risen again...

Firearm sales, or crimes? Gun crimes have dropped- it's the media that sensationalizes them that makes it seem worse.