Can LFE be sent to large main floorstanding speakers if no subwoofer?

[Trebdp83]

Wouldn't expect the 2ch setup with sub/crossover to have to do with LFE.

No, there is no LFE in 2.0 signals and even if playing multichannel signals with LFE and a subwoofer, LFE Distribution does not work with Main/Front speakers set at Small using a crossover.

Those wanting LFE sent to Main/Front speakers using an AVP/AVR featuring LFE Distribution first need to start with a signal containing LFE. Then, set Main/Front speakers at Large with NO subwoofer or set Main/Front speakers at Large with Subwoofer setting at YES with LFE+Main setting selected. Then, turn on LFE Distribution and adjust to one’s liking.

I’d use caution if distributing LFE to Main/Front speakers, especially when going from, say, Dolby Atmos music to DTS music signals as DTS comes in hot. One can adjust the level of LFE in the Low Frequency Effects level setting which is under Sound Parameter settings. Then, the amount of LFE Distribution to Main/Front speakers can be adjusted under the Subwoofer settings. Again, some Denon/Marantz models will have two sets of LFE Distribution settings when they also feature 2ch Playback settings.

The 2ch Playback settings can be as confusing as the LFE settings. It applies to two channel signals as well as multichannel signals such as 5.1, 7.1 and multichannel signals with object metadata as those signals can be played back in Stereo mode. The LFE of multichannel signals will be output to the subwoofer in Stereo mode with Main/Front set at Large in many cases but LFE+Main should be selected to make sure the subwoofer always receives a signal when Main/Front speakers are set at Large. Then, one can adjust LFE Distribution to Large Main/Front speakers.

The Denon A1H and Marantz AV10 are amazingly versatile units. One can have a pair of Main/Front A speakers for multichannel playback and have a B pair for Stereo playback with different settings for Subwoofer, Bass Extraction and LFE Distribution using the 2ch Playback settings. There are also the Directional subwoofer settings and all the different rules for different signals, sound modes and room correction. Oh, and don’t forget about IMAX. It has its own rules and some cannot be undone in settings. Some may encounter them depending on the device used for playback when Disney+ supposedly roles out “IMAX Signature Sound by DTS” in two weeks. It’s a lossy version of DTS:X with IMAX enhancements. Stay tuned. Apologies to @dcrandon for the digression.

 

[dcrandon]

I note the bass section of those speakers is active, So in that case there would be a distinct advantage in connecting and amp connected to the preout and a mixer circuit between the preout and the sub out. That would be a better arrangement. Those speakers are set up so this could be done.
The speakers already have an active crossover at 200 Hz.

So your absolute best solution is to Bi-amp those speakers with a two channel amp, and set the crossover in the receiver to 200 Hz. That would clean things up a lot. You would connect the sub outs to that amp. Set the receiver to LFE + main and crossover to 200 Hz and sub yes for left and right speakers.

My speakers are not active—completely passive crossovers.

Also, although they are bi-amp capable, the crossover is between the mids and the tweeters, not between the woofers and mids, so it is somewhat useless. The reason is that the " quasi-second-order" crossover, comprised of a combination of series and parallel connections between the drivers, makes it impossible to isolate the mids from the woofers.

 

[dcrandon]

$7000 they cost a boatload yes only for people with dedicated theater rooms . Some brands 20k+ cost as much as a new civic .

Ouch .. so I guess full range just is enough bad to trick t into thinking that was lfe . Your right lfe would over power small towers.
op speakers probably costed a lot $$$ but how capable is the 15” sub ? Looks old can’t be high Xmax .. gotta be someway to run lfe to those subs ?

Honestly, I don't know the Xmax of the woofers. However, considering I've got a 15" with a 12 and (2) tens, and a 15" PR in each, it can still have a high output. Max SPL is about 132db, and 1m with 5% THD.

They are old (mid 90's), but all drivers have been inspected and refreshed as needed just last month.

 

[dcrandon]

They are.

My speakers are passive. Was there something in the advertisement description that implied active?

 

[dcrandon]

I think the "subwoofers" are in fact active.

My speakers are passive. You are referring to the "advertisement" description I posted?

 

[Trebdp83]

Thanks for clearing all of that up. Without a single or multiple powered subwoofers in the mix, it's as easy as setting the Main/Front speakers at Large and Subwoofer at None. LFE signals will be sent to the Main/Front speakers when applicable and you will not have to fuss with the multitude of settings regarding use of a subwoofer and how to use it with different kinds of signals and sound modes.

 

[TLS Guy]

My speakers are not active—completely passive crossovers.

Also, although they are bi-amp capable, the crossover is between the mids and the tweeters, not between the woofers and mids, so it is somewhat useless. The reason is that the " quasi-second-order" crossover, comprised of a combination of series and parallel connections between the drivers, makes it impossible to isolate the mids from the woofers.

I see where the confusion came from. It described one of the woofers as active and the other passive. This would not be described that way now. An active arrangement now implies a speaker connected directly to a power amp, with an electronic crossover ahead of the power amp.

So what you have is a passive tuned bass section with a passive radiator, otherwise called and ABR.

That is a very low FR low pass passive crossover and far from the best arrangement by modern standards, and practice.

So there will be no LFE signal from stereo 2.0 sources by Dolby spec. In addition if you mix down any multichannel source with a sub/LFE channel it will not be included if you mix to 2.0. So you would have to do a setting of the right and left speakers large, and say you have a sub, and then some of the LFE channel will get sent to your mains.

However you would actually be far better off, even with those speakers adding a couple of subs. Drivers of that age were just not designed like sub drivers from the AV era and especially the recent AV era.

My advice is to add a couple of good subs and set the receiver to speaker large plus subs and then select LFE plus main and the cross to 60 or 80Hz.

I think this will improve you bass quality, but more importantly help preserve those rare speakers. Modern sources have much more potent bass content than what was around back then. So I strongly recommend pairing off those bass drivers if you want those speakers to stay in prime condition, and frankly not get ruined. Actually on reflection, I think it is a really bad idea to send the LFE channel, or any part of it, to those speakers, as you might well damage the bass drivers beyond repair.

 

[Trebdp83]

Nobody should feel silly about being confused and/or unsure about just what is going on with the LFE signal and its output using a subwoofer or not in their system. LFE(Low Frequency Effects) are contained in the .1 channel of multichannel tracks. But, that does not mean the other channels do not include low frequency signals. Dolby states that the Main channels of Dolby tracks contain low frequency signals that compliment, not replicate, the LFE signal in the LFE channel. This is for playback on Stereo rigs or those folks would get no low frequencies at all when a Dolby Signal is down mixed for output to a stereo setup.

The down mixing of signals is not as rare as some may think these days. There are two channel receivers popping up that support ARC. Unfortunately, they DO NOT support anything more than PCM 2.0. So, a Dolby Digital signal from a Smart TV will have to be converted to PCM for output and LFE will be lost. The Yamaha R-N1000A comes to mind. Signals output from its Sub Pre out will contain just the low frequencies from the Main/Front channels as the LFE will not come along for the ride. The ARC port can be connected ONLY to a TV supporting ARC/eARC. But, I digress.

The manual of my ol' tank, the Denon AVR-3803, was a good one and explained the output of the low frequency signal range from Large channels and the output of the low frequency signal range of LFE. Low frequencies from Large channels would be copied to the subwoofer for output along with the low frequency signals contained in the LFE channel using the LFE+Main Subwoofer Setting. LFE was NOT output from any Large speakers. The low frequency signals originating in those channels could be copied and output from the Subwoofer when set to LFE + Main but LFE could not be sent to the Large speakers. Like now, using Large speakers with NO subwoofer would result in LFE being routed to the Large speakers which were usually just the Front speakers. The new Denon/Marantz LFE Distribution feature will now allow LFE to be sent to the Large "Floor" speakers in a given configuration when using a subwoofer. Height speakers, even if set at Large, will NOT receive LFE signals when LFE Distribution is activated.

Oh, and a Dolby signal containing LFE will NOT be down mixed in an AVP/AVR that supports Dolby decoding just because one selects Stereo mode for output. The LFE will be intact and be output accordingly. Receivers that only support PCM 2.0 will need Dolby signals down mixed to PCM 2.0 at the source and will lose the LFE. Those concerned with LFE being sent to Mains when not using a sub can turn the LFE Level down. One can also turn the Front channel levels down and also fiddle with the manual EQ to lessen the load. Getting some subs will lessen the burden on the Fronts and the receiver amps. But, the multitude of settings for the subwoofer output in these new Denon/Marantz units will have some pulling their hair out for sure. Some will find, as I did after tinkering around with different signals and settings, that there are quite low frequencies in the Front channels and if one can turn LFE OFF they would find quite a bit of BASS output from the Subwoofer still using different settings to copy the low frequencies of the Fronts to the subwoofer but cut out LFE. I get why those with two channel setups with no subs seem generally happier than those chasing the bass dragon with systems featuring multiple speakers and subs. There is quite a bit to sort out when using subs with a given AVP/AVR. Settings are all over the place. Happy Listening All!

Denon AVR-3803:

 

[lovinthehd]

Then there's the sometimes bad use of the phrase of "LFE" in gear/manuals (e.g. such labeled inputs on a sub, almost as annoying as "crossover" for just an lpf).

 

[Mark E. Long]

By boost, I mean the bass is boosted when one is using a Yamaha AVP/AVR and speakers are set at Small with "Extra Bass" ON. This is in addition to the frequencies below the crossover setting of the Small speakers and those in the LFE channel being sent to the subwoofer. The bass boost is added to the Small speakers as well as the subwoofer. The boost is very evident. When Main/Fronts are Large and "Extra Bass" is ON, it works just like "LFE+Main" and "Double Bass" without any artificial boosting of the bass in any of the channels.

Late to the thread I’ve tried this with my Yamaha and I found it hard to get tamed down to a degree that I could find listenable and I have large capable speakers this has been a good informative read .

 

[TLS Guy]

Nobody should feel silly about being confused and/or unsure about just what is going on with the LFE signal and its output using a subwoofer or not in their system. LFE(Low Frequency Effects) are contained in the .1 channel of multichannel tracks. But, that does not mean the other channels do not include low frequency signals. Dolby states that the Main channels of Dolby tracks contain low frequency signals that compliment, not replicate, the LFE signal in the LFE channel. This is for playback on Stereo rigs or those folks would get no low frequencies at all when a Dolby Signal is down mixed for output to a stereo setup.

The down mixing of signals is not as rare as some may think these days. There are two channel receivers popping up that support ARC. Unfortunately, they DO NOT support anything more than PCM 2.0. So, a Dolby Digital signal from a Smart TV will have to be converted to PCM for output and LFE will be lost. The Yamaha R-N1000A comes to mind. Signals output from its Sub Pre out will contain just the low frequencies from the Main/Front channels as the LFE will not come along for the ride. The ARC port can be connected ONLY to a TV supporting ARC/eARC. But, I digress.

The manual of my ol' tank, the Denon AVR-3803, was a good one and explained the output of the low frequency signal range from Large channels and the output of the low frequency signal range of LFE. Low frequencies from Large channels would be copied to the subwoofer for output along with the low frequency signals contained in the LFE channel using the LFE+Main Subwoofer Setting. LFE was NOT output from any Large speakers. The low frequency signals originating in those channels could be copied and output from the Subwoofer when set to LFE + Main but LFE could not be sent to the Large speakers. Like now, using Large speakers with NO subwoofer would result in LFE being routed to the Large speakers which were usually just the Front speakers. The new Denon/Marantz LFE Distribution feature will now allow LFE to be sent to the Large "Floor" speakers in a given configuration when using a subwoofer. Height speakers, even if set at Large, will NOT receive LFE signals when LFE Distribution is activated.

Oh, and a Dolby signal containing LFE will NOT be down mixed in an AVP/AVR that supports Dolby decoding just because one selects Stereo mode for output. The LFE will be intact and be output accordingly. Receivers that only support PCM 2.0 will need Dolby signals down mixed to PCM 2.0 at the source and will lose the LFE. Those concerned with LFE being sent to Mains when not using a sub can turn the LFE Level down. One can also turn the Front channel levels down and also fiddle with the manual EQ to lessen the load. Getting some subs will lessen the burden on the Fronts and the receiver amps. But, the multitude of settings for the subwoofer output in these new Denon/Marantz units will have some pulling their hair out for sure. Some will find, as I did after tinkering around with different signals and settings, that there are quite low frequencies in the Front channels and if one can turn LFE OFF they would find quite a bit of BASS output from the Subwoofer still using different settings to copy the low frequencies of the Fronts to the subwoofer but cut out LFE. I get why those with two channel setups with no subs seem generally happier than those chasing the bass dragon with systems featuring multiple speakers and subs. There is quite a bit to sort out when using subs with a given AVP/AVR. Settings are all over the place. Happy Listening All!

Denon AVR-3803:
View attachment 67329

Just to be clear, this is what eArc can support if the whole audio chain supports it.

• DTS-HD Master Audio
• DTS:X
• Dolby TrueHD
• Dolby Atmos
• Uncompressed 5.1 and 7.1
• 32-channel uncompressed audio

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, eARC supports the enhanced bandwidth needed for lossless multichannel formats and is NOT dependent on HDMI-CEC being ON in the TV and the receiving end to work. The ARC spec supports lossy multichannel formats such as Dolby Digital Plus but is dependent on HDMI-CEC being ON in the TV and receiving end.

Those with TVs that support eARC can turn OFF eARC support so ARC spec is active when connected to a receiver that supports ARC but NOT eARC. Leaving eARC ON in some TVs will force the TV to perform a re encode of the signal if it exceeds the bandwidth of the ARC spec and audio sync issues can arise.

TVs that support eARC but do NOT support DTS will convert the incoming DTS signal from directly connected devices to multichannel PCM when Digital Audio Output is set for Passthrough, not PCM, and metadata from DTS:X signals will be lost.

The very limited ARC ports on receivers such as the Yamaha R-N1000A will only support PCM 2.0 because there are no Dolby or DTS decoders in the unit and uncompressed multichannel PCM signals exceed the bandwidth available over ARC. So, a connected TV will have to have its Digital Audio Output set to PCM. This results in a down mix of any Dolby, DTS or uncompressed multichannel PCM signals to PCM 2.0.

Dolby Atmos metadata can be carried over a DD+ and DTHD bitstream. It can also be present using Dolby MAT when a device converts incoming signals to LPCM for output. Atmos/DD+ bitstreams fit over ARC. Atmos/TrueHD bitstreams and Atmos/PCM using Dolby MAT exceed the ARC spec.

 

[Kingnoob]

I see where the confusion came from. It described one of the woofers as active and the other passive. This would not be described that way now. An active arrangement now implies a speaker connected directly to a power amp, with an electronic crossover ahead of the power amp.

So what you have is a passive tuned bass section with a passive radiator, otherwise called and ABR.

That is a very low FR low pass passive crossover and far from the best arrangement by modern standards, and practice.

So there will be no LFE signal from stereo 2.0 sources by Dolby spec. In addition if you mix down any multichannel source with a sub/LFE channel it will not be included if you mix to 2.0. So you would have to do a setting of the right and left speakers large, and say you have a sub, and then some of the LFE channel will get sent to your mains.

However you would actually be far better off, even with those speakers adding a couple of subs. Drivers of that age were just not designed like sub drivers from the AV era and especially the recent AV era.

My advice is to add a couple of good subs and set the receiver to speaker large plus subs and then select LFE plus main and the cross to 60 or 80Hz.

I think this will improve you bass quality, but more importantly help preserve those rare speakers. Modern sources have much more potent bass content than what was around back then. So I strongly recommend pairing off those bass drivers if you want those speakers to stay in prime condition, and frankly not get ruined. Actually on reflection, I think it is a really bad idea to send the LFE channel, or any part of it, to those speakers, as you might well damage the bass drivers beyond repair.

Exactly Xmax of the woofers is unknown being so old I’m sure they can handle down to 40-60 hz but lfe could over exert them. But modern subs are monsters. I knew someone with huge vintage speakers but they wore out from running full range and he junked them because they weren’t an expensive brand . 18” woofers and a 12 inch and 10” mids .

 

[dcrandon]

IF you turn off the sub channel on most modern AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, etc, the LFE will be re-routed to the mains. Sometimes this can be a bit too much LFE especially if your mains aren't up for the task so you should lower the LFE level at least 3-6dB (different than the sub level) if you're planning on doing this.

In my old system, I used a Yamaha CX-5200 Prepro. I ran the unit with no sub bc my mains are true full range towers. I wanted full LFE to go to them. I then added additional subs at the rear of the room using the main left/right unbalanced outputs and did the bass management locally within each sub since they were being sent fullrange signals. This can work but it's very tricky to get sounding right.

In most cases, I don't recommend this type of configuration. If you have true bass capable mains, get a new Denon/Marantz AVR with LFE routing so you can route LFE to them and still have dedicated sub channels with bass management and LFE routing. They added this feature because I kept bugging them for it. Works great on the Marantz AV10 as long as you don't use DIRAC.

What the heck?

So, after all this discussion we've come to the conclusion that, yes, the Denon AVR-x4800h CAN send the LFE info to the main speakers even if you don't have a seperate sub, using the LFE Distribution control, as seen here on page 238.

So, I went to the settings to do this, and this is what I see. What the heck?

(click the attachment to see the message from the AVR. Can't get it to display as a picture)

Adjusts the amount of LFE signal sent to the full-range floor speakers. Can't be set when subwoofer is not used.

Attachments

• PXL_20240503_032602587~2.jpeg
  1,009.3 KBViews: 0

 

[PENG]

My speakers are passive. You are referring to the "advertisement" description I posted?

Yes, that's why I said I think the "subwoofers" (one of the two 15" one anyway) are active, as I know the other drivers are passive. Am I still wrong?

 

[Trebdp83]

What the heck?

So, after all this discussion we've come to the conclusion that, yes, the Denon AVR-x4800h CAN send the LFE info to the main speakers even if you don't have a seperate sub, using the LFE Distribution control, as seen here on page 238.

View attachment 67341

So, I went to the settings to do this, and this is what I see. What the heck?

(click the attachment to see the message from the AVR. Can't get it to display as a picture)

Adjusts the amount of LFE signal sent to the full-range floor speakers. Can't be set when subwoofer is not used.

That is correct. The LFE is already sent to the Large Front speakers along with the low frequency range signals of the Front channels and any channels set at Small when NO subwoofer is in use. The LFE Distribution feature works ONLY when a subwoofer is used and the LFE can be distributed to any Large “Floor” speakers.

This answers one of my questions directed to Gene. If he’d used the sub pre outs of his A5200 instead of a set of the Front Pre Outs, his Full Range Front speakers set at Large would not have received any LFE. This forced subwoofer integration settings at the subwoofers themselves as they received a Full Range signal from the Front Pre Outs.

Gene did say that those using Large speakers and no subwoofer could lower the LFE level to avoid issues and that the LFE Distribution feature works when a subwoofer is in the mix. Before the LFE Distribution and Bass Extraction features were added, Large speakers could NOT get any LFE signals when a subwoofer was in use and a subwoofer received a fixed copy of any Large channel low frequency range signals up to 80Hz.

Now, those with Full Range speakers and subwoofers in use can send LFE to any Large “Floor” speakers and also adjust the low frequency range signals of Large speakers copied to the subwoofer when a unit features both LFE Distribution AND Bass Extraction.

The LFE Distribution, and LPF of LFE for that matter, are part of the Subwoofer settings and only apply when a subwoofer is present. Notice that the “”Low Frequency Effects” level setting is NOT present in Subwoofer settings. This is because it is adjustable when using Large speakers and NO subwoofer. If it was only applicable when using a subwoofer, those using Large speakers with NO subwoofer could not back off the LFE at all.

 

[dcrandon]

Yes, that's why I said I think the "subwoofers" (one of the two 15" one anyway) are active, as I now the other drivers are passive. Am I still wrong?

They are passive. Just normal speakers. I never really noticed that in the description. I guess Brian described in like that to differentiate the "regular" driven 15" from the 15" passive radiator

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, that's why I said I think the "subwoofers" (one of the two 15" one anyway) are active, as I now the other drivers are passive. Am I still wrong?

Think Klipsch Forte’ speakers. There is a “Passive Radiator” on the back of the cabinet. It is not connected to any wiring while the front facing woofer is “Active.” This is also the case with the VMPS Supertower III. One 15” “subwoofer” is “Active” while the other is a down facing “Passive Radiator.” “Active” subwoofer in this case does not mean “Powered” subwoofer in the modern vernacular.

 

[dcrandon]

That is correct. The LFE is already sent to the Large Front speakers along with the low frequency range signals of the Front channels and any channels set at Small when NO subwoofer is in use. The LFE Distribution feature works ONLY when a subwoofer is used and the LFE can be distributed to any Large “Floor” speakers.

This answers one of my questions directed to Gene. If he’d used the sub pre outs of his A5200 instead of a set of the Front Pre Outs, his Full Range Front speakers set at Large would not have received any LFE. This forced subwoofer integration settings at the subwoofers themselves as they received a Full Range signal from the Front Pre Outs.

Gene did say that those using Large speakers and no subwoofer could lower the LFE level to avoid issues and that the LFE Distribution feature works when a subwoofer is in the mix. Before the LFE Distribution and Bass Extraction features were added, Large speakers could NOT get any LFE signals when a subwoofer was in use and a subwoofer received a fixed copy of any Large channel low frequency range signals up to 80Hz.

Now, those with Full Range speakers and subwoofers in use can send LFE to any Large “Floor” speakers and also adjust the low frequency range signals of Large speakers copied to the subwoofer when a unit features both LFE Distribution AND Bass Extraction.

The LFE Distribution, and LPF of LFE for that matter, are part of the Subwoofer settings and only apply when a subwoofer is present. Notice that the “”Low Frequency Effects” level setting is NOT present in Subwoofer settings. This is because it is adjustable when using Large speakers and NO subwoofer. If it was only applicable when using a subwoofer, those using Large speakers with NO subwoofer could not back off the LFE at all.

Thank you for the explanation. Geez, Denon could have done a much better job of describing this stuff.

So, you say: " Notice that the “”Low Frequency Effects” level setting is NOT present in Subwoofer settings. This is because it is adjustable when using Large speakers and NO subwoofer. If it was only applicable when using a subwoofer, those using Large speakers with NO subwoofer could not back off the LFE at all."

Are you saying that with my large main speakers and NO sub, that the LFE is sent to the large main speakers automatically without any specific settings? In this case, there IS or IS NOT as way to change the level of the LFE?

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, LFE is sent to Large speakers when NO subwoofer is present. Yes, there IS a way to adjust the LFE Level when using NO subwoofer. I should have been a bit more clear myself. The Low Frequency Effects Level setting applies to ANY speaker outputting the LFE, not just a subwoofer.

Be mindful of the -10dB setting when playing DTS Music. I can tell you my DTS music discs come in hot.