Can I calibrate Sub phase without Avia?

[Buckeye_Nut]

Is there any easy way to set the phase control on my subwoofer without an avia disc? My phase control knob is incremental between 0-180, and I'd like to know of an easy way to set the control??

Im happy with the YPAO setup of the speakers. YPAO both equalizes the speakers as flat as possible >65hz, and it sets channel levels automatically so I dont really want to mess with buying the Avia disc. Does anyone have any good suggestions for setting phase control by ear with the built-in receiver test tones?

Thanks.....

 

[fergusonv]

What you can do is download a few test tones around your crossover point, play them back and measure the output with your spl meter, whichever phase setting gives you the most output is the one you should use. Another way to try to set it by ear is set your mains to large and enable your sub out as well with a high crossover find a source with a consistent bass note around your crossover and measure the peak with each phase setting, the one with the most output would be the correct phase setting (remember to set your mains back to small and adjust crossover when your done).

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

You know whats funny is how I have it set up now. I simply set my phase to 90. I figured that the correct setting would be somewhere between 0-180, so what better way to 'kentucky windage' the setting as close as possible than placing it right in the middle??
HEH

As for the SPL meter, I was avoiding messing with that stuff. My receiver came with a mic and internal test tones that automatically calibrate speaker levels and equalize speakers >65hz with pleasing results. From the reviews that I have read, I hear the auto calibration hits the mark pretty well, so Im not really interested in buying discs or SPL meters or finicking with it manually. The only problem that I have is that I dont think it accounts for subwoofer phase settings.

 

[fergusonv]

It does not set sub phase in any meaningfull way. There is the option on my Yamaha (2500) that lets you change the sub phase (normal/reverse) from the menu so you don't have to go back and forth when setting phase, not sure about yours. If you don't have a meter and are not interested in getting one you can just set the speakers to large, enable the sub with a high crossover as well, play some bass heavy music and change the phase control until the best result (most output) is achieved, then set your speakers back to small and set the crossover and levels accordingly.

 

[sivadselim]

If the receiver's auto-calibration is setting the sub's distance, then that should take care of the sub's phasing.

 

[bongobob]

If the receiver's auto-calibration is setting the sub's distance, then that should take care of the sub's phasing.

In my personal experiance I've found the YPAO settings on my 2500 for the sub to be all but worthless. The distance setting is off by about 3Ft and it wants to set the Xover at 200Hz. Does a fine job on the other 7 speakers though.

 

[sivadselim]

In my personal experiance I've found the YPAO settings on my 2500 for the sub to be all but worthless. The distance setting is off by about 3Ft and it wants to set the Xover at 200Hz. Does a fine job on the other 7 speakers though.

The distance setting it assigns does not always agree with reality. That's my point. The auto-calibration will adjust the "virtual distance" as seen by the mic and in doing so is adjusting the phasing.

Now, how well the auto-calibration really works in each users' hands is a whole other issue and probably varies considerably from situation to situation and almost certainly varies from (receiver/pre/pro) manufacturer to manufacturer.

Many people DO have the same experience with auto-calibration, bongobob, and many, many people still prefer to calibrate manually with a disc like AVIA, for any number of reasons. The subwoofer's distance setting can be used to "dial-in" the phasing manually, too, and in many cases, depending upon whether a user's sub is equipped with a completely variable phase control knob or not, can offer a higher degree of attenuation.

The distance setting is a time-alignment.

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

In my personal experiance I've found the YPAO settings on my 2500 for the sub to be all but worthless. The distance setting is off by about 3Ft and it wants to set the Xover at 200Hz. Does a fine job on the other 7 speakers though.

I agree that the YPAO doesnt help much as it relates to the subwoofer. I always set the sub gain by ear anyway because I tend to set the gain higher when listening at lower volumes, and lower when I'm up near reference levels. As for the phase setting, correct..... YPAO does absolutely nothing for that, and that's why I created this thread in the first place.

YPAO always calculates the sub distance wrong, but other than that, that is the only issue I have with the YPAO setup, and I am very pleased with the results of the 'auto' setup. Afterall, it only takes about 5 seconds to page over and set the correct sub distance on the manual setup menu. Interestingly enough, the YPAO always sets my crossover at 80hz. If it didnt, I'd change change it to the 80hz setting anyway..........LOL

BTW, I've googled very extensively, and found a thread by none other than the AVIA honcho himself in another forum!!
He said that if your speaker distances are all input correctly into your receiver, that your receiver processor will automatically put your speakers in phase with respect your primary seating position(the mic position), and that the correct subwoofer phase setting should be set to ZERO. And this was coming from straight from the AVIA guy!!!!

He also went on to say that you should still buy the disc to make sure, and to possibly fine tune, yadda, yadda, yadda.......

I realize that setting your phase control is only one small piece of the Avia pie...so to speak, but that was the only piece I was hungry for......LOL

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

If the receiver's auto-calibration is setting the sub's distance, then that should take care of the sub's phasing.

If only you had answered sooner, you could have save me a lot of googling!!

hahahahahaha

Yep, that's the moral of the story!! As I already stated in my previous post, the YPAO always puts the sub at the wrong distance, but it only takes about 5 seconds to make the correction manually
Interestingly enough, the YPAO nails the speaker distances of my other 7 speakers dead on.


Thanks for your response!!

 

[sivadselim]

If only you had answered sooner, you could have save me a lot of googling!!

hahahahahaha

Yep, that's the moral of the story!! As I already stated in my previous post, the YPAO always puts the sub at the wrong distance, but it only takes about 5 seconds to make the correction manually
Interestingly enough, the YPAO nails the speaker distances of my other 7 speakers dead on.


Thanks for your response!!

NO! You should NOT "correct" it! That's the whole point!

Because of the physics of low frequency sound propogation, in an enclosed room, from a man-made, often ported, structure, what the microphone detects and seemingly "incorrectly" sets as the "distance" will be that setting which is necessary to correctly TIME-ALIGN your subwoofer.

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

So you're telling me that if the YPAO says the sub is 10 feet away, but I measured and know for a fact that it sits 8 feet away, that I should leave the setting at 10feet?????


On a brighter note, at least we're only talking about 2 feet in my case because that shouldnt make a huge difference one way or the other. I'll bump up the distance and experiment

Either way, Im headed on the right track.

 

[sivadselim]

So you're telling me that if the YPAO says the sub is 10 feet away, but I measured and know for a fact that it sits 8 feet away, that I should leave the setting at 10feet?????

That is exactly what I'm telling you. The difference that that 2 feet represents may be the difference between being in or out of phase.

Think about how the microphone/auto-calibration works. It is measuring HOW LONG it takes for the sound that it outputs from each speaker to reach it.

It is, of course, not really measuring distance; it's measuring milliseconds. And it can't really "lie", as far as the TIME is concerned (unless Einstein was wrong).

That seeming disparity in the distance is what it takes to time-align your subwoofer's output with your speakers' output.

And NO, the time delay and the phase are NOT the same thing, but in this case they are very much related.

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

Thanks for the good info!! Every time I run the calibration program, the settings always come back the same, so I'll trust the YPAO knows what it's doing and put the sub distance to 10ft. I always figured it was a YPAO mistake I do have a ported subwoofer too....BIG PORTS!!

LOL.... and to think I had my sub set at 8 feet and phase set to 90 for almost a year.........hahahaha

Who knows, maybe the combination of both tuning mistakes over the past year 'accidentally' perfectly tuned my sub!! Either way, I fixed the distance, and set my phase to zero. I'll watch a movie tonight and give it a whirl.

 

[sivadselim]

Thanks for the good info!! Every time I run the calibration program, the settings always come back the same, so I'll trust the YPAO knows what it's doing and put the sub distance to 10ft. I always figured it was a YPAO mistake I do have a ported subwoofer too....BIG PORTS!!

LOL.... and to think I had my sub set at 8 feet and phase set to 90 for almost a year.........hahahaha

Who knows, maybe the combination of both tuning mistakes over the past year 'accidentally' perfectly tuned my sub!! Either way, I fixed the distance, and set my phase to zero. I'll watch a movie tonight and give it a whirl.

Well, don't hold me responsible for messing up your sound.

Everything we're discussing about the auto-calibration's time alignment is based upon how it's supposed to work, theoretically. How it works in practice is another question.

You may actually find that you prefer it "incorrect". In the end what matters is that it sounds good to you. If you have a completely variable phase control knob, you can easily experiment with a variety of settings.

 

[bongobob]

Ahhh. What sounds good. That's the ticket. Actually I don't change the distance setting from Ypao as Iv'e found the difference to be inconsequential to the ear. I set the phase for what I perceive to be the best blend and response. The xover settings and level are still totally out of wack for music unless manually set. And I don't run the sub hot or so that it's recognizable in the mix. And I fully realize the lack of true lower frequency levels in most recorded audio. I still contend that neither Ypao OR Avia can satisfy a subs prefered response for music. I reset the xover much lower, tune the phase to where it sounds best and adjust the sub levels for many different discs I throw in. For balance and clarity. It's really the only setting I screw with on a regular basis. It's amazing the variance of bass levels not only between disc to disc, but sometimes from track to track. Stinks of bad mastering to me. Thank God for a good remote... Whatever makes your ears happy.

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

I wouldnt know anything about the music CD thing.... LOL

My HT probably wouldnt know what one is considering it's never seen one Rumor has it AV receivers have built in radios too. Is that true??
hahah

Go figure? I vaguely remember playing a music CD once on my old home theater back in 2000.

 

[fergusonv]

Just as a side not on the phase issue. Let me tell you my experience with YPAO and setting up subs. I have a RXV2500 and I can change my subs phase settings to either 0 or180. I can get up change the phase on the subs (completely reversed) and run YPAO again and it dosent even realize I have done it. The sub phase and distance are not changed. I have plotted my response in 1 hz increments and it is obvious which is the correct setting and it makes a huge difference, however YPAO dosent think it does and never makes the correct changes. I was also under the impression that time alignment and phase are seperate issues.