C-CAM Ribbon vs. RAAL Ribbon

[Roen]

Which is better and why?

 

[Swerd]

Which speakers are you considering?

Asking only about two ribbon tweeters is too simple a way to look at things.

 

[Roen]

Not really considering specific speakers, but wondering about the differences.

Monitor Audio Gold
Ascend Sierra-2
Philharmonic New Philharmonitor

 

[Swerd]

I am familiar with RAAL ribbons. I have a pair Salk speakers with them, and I am very happy with it. It compares very well with other speakers I've known with dome tweeters, but I have not compared it to other speakers with ribbon tweeters.

Both Ascend and Philharmonic Audio make very good speakers, and I feel safe in saying they know how to properly design a speaker with these ribbons. The owner/designer of Philharmonic Audio also does the design of most of the Salk speakers.

I am not familiar with any of the Monitor Audio speakers. I would assume they also know what they are doing, but I haven't heard any MA speakers in more than a decade. Have you heard any of the MA Gold speakers?

With ribbon tweeters, it's not how high they can go (as high as 40-60 kHz) because we really cannot hear above 20 kHz. Instead, its how low they can go without distorting. What is the crossover frequency between the mid woofer and tweeter in a 2-way, or the mid range and tweeter in a 3-way? Is there any audible distortion from the tweeter at its low range and does the crossover avoid it? And for that matter, is there any audible break-up noise from the mid woofer or mid range driver at their high ranges and does the crossover avoid it? To avoid tweeter distortion, the crossover frequency must be high enough. But to avoid the break-up noise of a mid or mid woofer, the crossover frequency must be low enough.

So the crossover frequency and the nature of the crossover slopes become major factors in a good design.

 

[TheWarrior]

I have RAAL 70-10's and adore them. But I will say that for movies, I want a beryllium dome center channel. No compression, better able to handle the demands of multiple sound sources on screen.

But that is my compromise so that I can keep ribbons on the tower speakers for music. Ribbons do amazing things with strings- plucked, bowed, or hammered!

 

[Swerd]

I have RAAL 70-10's and adore them. But I will say that for movies, I want a beryllium dome center channel. No compression, better able to handle the demands of multiple sound sources on screen.

The RAAL 70-10 ribbon is quite robust, capable of handling 150 W. It seems to be intended to work in a 3-way speaker, with a crossover point no lower than 2.8 kHz, using L-R 4th order slopes.

My speakers (Salk Veracity ST speakers with RAAL ribbon tweeter & 6" magnesium alloy W16 woofers) are 2-way and have the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter. RAAL sells them only to speaker manufacturers who sign a non-disclosure agreement. It is probably more robust than the 70-10, but its details are proprietary. We know only that they can be crossed over as low as 1.8 kHz if the crossover is L-R 4th order. There doesn't seem to be another ribbon tweet capable of being crossed over low enough for use in 2-way speakers, unless the mid woofer is small.

Ribbons do amazing things with strings- plucked, bowed, or hammered!

Agreed.

For years, I had standard SongTowers with the Hiquphon dome tweeter. In the past year, I replaced them with Veracity ST speakers.

Early on, I was of the opinion that both tweeters were very good and it would be hard to tell the difference. With better quality recordings, the difference between those two could indeed be hard to tell. It's subtle and does depend on the type of music. But I agree with what you say about strings, especially about massed strings in orchestras.

However, I was surprised when I listened to poorly recorded music (Nuggets CDs, one-hit wonders from the mid 1960s). With the SongTowers, they sounded so harsh that I decided they were un-listenable with good speakers. I put them away in an out of the way place.

I had assumed the new Veracity ST speakers, with the metallic mid woofers and the ribbon tweeter, would sound as bad or worse with those recordings. I was surprised to hear that I was wrong. The harshness was much improved, or even gone, and these recordings became listenable again. I'm not sure why this is so, but I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[TheWarrior]

The RAAL 70-10 ribbon is quite robust, capable of handling 150 W. It seems to be intended to work in a 3-way speaker, with a crossover point no lower than 2.8 kHz, using L-R 4th order slopes.

My speakers (Salk Veracity ST speakers with RAAL ribbon tweeter & 6" magnesium alloy W16 woofers) are 2-way and have the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter. RAAL sells them only to speaker manufacturers who sign a non-disclosure agreement. It is probably more robust than the 70-10, but its details are proprietary. We know only that they can be crossed over as low as 1.8 kHz if the crossover is L-R 4th order. There doesn't seem to be another ribbon tweet capable of being crossed over low enough for use in 2-way speakers, unless the mid woofer is small.
Agreed.

For years, I had standard SongTowers with the Hiquphon dome tweeter. In the past year, I replaced them with Veracity ST speakers.

Early on, I was of the opinion that both tweeters were very good and it would be hard to tell the difference. With better quality recordings, the difference between those two could indeed be hard to tell. It's subtle and does depend on the type of music. But I agree with what you say about strings, especially about massed strings in orchestras.

However, I was surprised when I listened to poorly recorded music (Nuggets CDs, one-hit wonders from the mid 1960s). With the SongTowers, they sounded so harsh that I decided they were un-listenable with good speakers. I put them away in an out of the way place.

I had assumed the new Veracity ST speakers, with the metallic mid woofers and the ribbon tweeter, would sound as bad or worse with those recordings. I was surprised to hear that I was wrong. The harshness was much improved, or even gone, and these recordings became listenable again. I'm not sure why this is so, but I was pleasantly surprised.

Perhaps it's a similar form of sound wave propagation? Tiny strings? The wide dispersion definitely helps match the natural timbre of musical instruments.

I didn't allow KEW's Phil 3's to leave.

 

[TheWarrior]

Not really considering specific speakers, but wondering about the differences.

Monitor Audio Gold
Ascend Sierra-2
Philharmonic New Philharmonitor

I highly recommend Philharmonic Audio. Dennis builds these speakers for pleasure, not profit. The value simply cannot be matched.

The 5.5" woofer in the 'monitor is not to be overlooked, but I can't over stress the advantages of a properly designed 3 way in the BMR. And it's only $200 more in standard cabinets.

 

[Roen]

I highly recommend Philharmonic Audio. Dennis builds these speakers for pleasure, not profit. The value simply cannot be matched.

The 5.5" woofer in the 'monitor is not to be overlooked, but I can't over stress the advantages of a properly designed 3 way in the BMR. And it's only $200 more in standard cabinets.

I'm not looking at the 3-way BMR.

All of my examples are 2-way bookshelves, to be consistent.

 

[TheWarrior]

I'm not looking at the 3-way BMR.

All of my examples are 2-way bookshelves, to be consistent.

Cool! Like I said, that 5.5" woofer is not to be overlooked!

 

[Roen]

Cool! Like I said, that 5.5" woofer is not to be overlooked!

Thanks, I already have the Sierra-2 though. I was just asking out of curiosity.

 

[TheWarrior]

Thanks, I already have the Sierra-2 though. I was just asking out of curiosity.

Having second thoughts?

 

[Roen]

Just the opposite.

I just saw Monitor Audio's tweeters and wondered how much of a difference the material would make.

 

[TheWarrior]

Just the opposite.

I just saw Monitor Audio's tweeters and wondered how much of a difference the material would make.

I'm pretty sure Monitor builds their own drivers so it's a safe bet that they are quite capable. Maybe keep your eyes out for some guaranteed return deals or open box type things. See if you can do a side by side comparison at home, or even bring them to a shop!

 

[everettT]

I'm pretty sure Monitor builds their own drivers so it's a safe bet that they are quite capable. Maybe keep your eyes out for some guaranteed return deals or open box type things. See if you can do a side by side comparison at home, or even bring them to a shop!

I could very well be wrong but I thought the were sourcing from fountek , I'll see if the rep will verify.

 

[Swerd]

I could very well be wrong but I thought the were sourcing from fountek , I'll see if the rep will verify.

I wondered about that too. From exterior appearances, the MA ribbon tweet looks like Founteks. Considering the small number of ribbon tweeter manufacturers, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one of them makes ribbon tweeters for MA under contract.

Fountek

Monitor Audio

 

[Roen]

If they're outsourcing the ribbon, who made the decision on the alloy tweeter instead of single metal?

 

[TheWarrior]

Huh could have sworn they made their own.... not that I have any connections or much experience with the brand. I could very well be wrong about that!

 

[everettT]

The case for using off the shelve drivers like plannars, ribbons, is a cost effective measure. When manufacturers say that the building their drivers, many times they ask the OEM to tweak an existing driver so they can claim they can claim it's their design. Even most of the exotic manufacturers like Wilson use off the shelve drivers.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Even most of the exotic manufacturers like Wilson use off the shelve drivers.

Pyle is one of such vendors