Building a new System

[panzeroceania]

So I want to start identifying components to build a new A/V system out of.

I want to have speakers that can play the 24bit/192khz 5.1 surround track from the Akira Blu Ray. Not many speakers can reach 100khz so I wanted to know what my options were.

Pioneer speakers are the only one's that I know of that are advertised to hit 100khz. I've also heard B&W diamond series can hit high frequencies but they didn't seem to say they could hit 100khz on their website.

I'm actually a huge fan of focal speakers but they're only designed to hit 40khz so it looks like I'll be going with Pioneer for this System.

nextly I want a Preamp that can handle all 11.2 channels in the Audyssey DSX technology.

The only preamp on the market I know that can do this is the Denon AVR-4311CI that handles all 11.2 through it's preamp outputs. It also has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which is important to me.

From there, to power all those channels, I'm going to need mono amps. I would love suggestions on the best mono amps because I don't know a lot about them yet.

From there I need a good source to play the blu-ray audio from.

I've heard that the PS3 really is the way to go when trying to process that many high bandwidth signals. Do you think that with Akira on blu-ray running from a playstation 3, would be able to output 5.1 Dolby True HD 24bit/192khz to the Denon AVR-4311CI. Then would the Denon AVR-4311CI be able to turn that 5.1 Dolby True HD 24bit/192khz signal into a 11.2 24bit/192khz signal? or would quality be lost?

Then the Pioneer speakers should be able to output at those high frequencies creating quite an amazing audio experience.

I'd also like some recommendations on a good SACD player. Would it be best to try to track down the old PS3 that would play SACDs? The reason I ask is because the PS3 has a very accurate blu laser which might be able to read the disk more accurately. Or would it be better to go with a high end audiophile SACD Player.

Also would you use the PS3 for DVD-Audio, or get another player.

The reason I want to go with a PS3 vs a more expensive universal player is because I'm worried that the universal player wouldn't have the processing power of the PS3 that is required to process all those high bandwidth audio channels.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[its phillip]

Whoa, what? You don't need speakers to hit 100khz.

 

[jostenmeat]

So, the 4311 can do 11.x like the 4810 (which was the only one that could before, is that right)? I wonder which other processors can do 11.x . . .

For everything that I've read about 192khz, and even with Akira, is that don't worry about it, you're wasting your time. Trust me, this is the least of your concerns in obtaining SQ.

For processor power, it's not the player, but the receiver. Since you're looking at higher end, higher budget, units, the odds that you will have enough processing power are a lot higher, good for you.

Why do you want mono amps? The best are $$$$$$$$$$$. Are you sure you want the "best"? The most affordable that I know that are worth having are probably the Outlaw units, though they've been around for a while. They give discounts with larger orders.

If you are a gamer, obviously the pS3 is a good choice (there isn't any other bdp that you can game on). Otherwise, I'd look at Oppo, and possibly Denon.

edit: oh, lol, 40khz on the speakers and 192khz are totally different things; sampling frequency.

 

[panzeroceania]

So, the 4311 can do 11.x like the 4810 (which was the only one that could before, is that right)? I wonder which other processors can do 11.x . . .

For everything that I've read about 192khz, and even with Akira, is that don't worry about it, you're wasting your time. Trust me, this is the least of your concerns in obtaining SQ.

For processor power, it's not the player, but the receiver. Since you're looking at higher end, higher budget, units, the odds that you will have enough processing power are a lot higher, good for you.

Why do you want mono amps? The best are $$$$$$$$$$$. Are you sure you want the "best"? The most affordable that I know that are worth having are probably the Outlaw units, though they've been around for a while. They give discounts with larger orders.

If you are a gamer, obviously the pS3 is a good choice (there isn't any other bdp that you can game on). Otherwise, I'd look at Oppo, and possibly Denon.

edit: oh, lol, 40khz on the speakers and 192khz are totally different things; sampling frequency.

yeah only a few receivers/pre/pros do 11.x, as far as I know it's only denon units, and only that one has the multi EQ XT32 as far as I know.

I like Onkyo's too but none of them do 11.x preamp out and Multi EQ XT32 yet as far as I know.

I certainly know a speaker with a higher frequency does not equate quality, not at all, I actually prefer focals for their tone compared to other speakers I've heard, but I have heard your speakers need to be of a certain caliber to be able to pull off the hyper sonic effects in Akira, plus I'm sure it'd be helpful in some of those Norwegian Blu Ray Audio discs.

the real question I have is can the denon take a 5.1 24/192 signal and put it out through DSX to 11.2 channels without losing any quality, is it even possible, etc.

The reason I would go mono amp is because to get 11.2 out of that denon, you have to use preamp outs. the most channels any denon power amp has is 10, and I need 11. I also figure that maybe in 5 to 10 years they may try to add more channels so it's best to go with amps that I can continue to add to and use, unless you have a power amp that can handle 11 channels.

I just figured I didn't have any alternatives.

I am a gamer, but I am trying to get the best Blu Ray Player for quality, not worried about the gaming. I know the oppo is considered the best blu ray out there but I also know that even great players have been obsoleted with new blu ray upgrades like 2.0 BD Live, and 3D. I know that the PS3 has been around since the beginning and never been obsoleted.

My brother has a Samsung BD-P3600 which was supposed to be a very good player. It is, but I still find it's loading speeds, etc. to be slow. It is also obsolete because, as far as I know, it isn't 3D compatible. I know the PS3 or a Home Theater PC would have plenty of CPU power to load information from the disks quickly. It also depends on whether the player is processing the signal or if I'm bit streaming it to the preamp.

ok so you say the sampling frequency is different, I can understand that, but the Akira Blu Ray still says that it requires speakers that can hit 100khz to achieve the hyper sonic effect. Is this not true?

EDIT:

a guy at another site showed me these

http://www.kosmic.us/mhi-evidence-speakers.html

they can reach up to 120khz!

they're not super high end, but only cost $849.00 for a pair so seems like a good investment, there is a dealer near me in Portland so I'll probably go and take a listen. I'll probably still prefer the Focal's to these but I really want to experience Akira's hypersonic effect.

 

[jostenmeat]

You can't hear 100khz. Heck, I bet most AHers can no longer hear 20khz. I'm pretty sure I can't, and I previously worked as a classical musician.

Personally, I think your goals are ridiculous, no offense to you as a person.

For the preouts on Denon, if 11.x, must ALL of the channels be with outboard amps? I highly doubt this. You can do a 3ch amp for your front three, and have the receiver power the rest? Check and report back. Or a 5ch amp, or 7ch amp, etc.

Mono amp x 11 means you actually have 11 separate amplifiers, each with their own power supplies. It's kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

For the player, I'll let you figure that one out on your own. GOOD LUCK!

 

[panzeroceania]

You can't hear 100khz. Heck, I bet most AHers can no longer hear 20khz. I'm pretty sure I can't, and I previously worked as a classical musician.

Personally, I think your goals are ridiculous, no offense to you as a person.

For the preouts on Denon, if 11.x, must ALL of the channels be with outboard amps? I highly doubt this. You can do a 3ch amp for your front three, and have the receiver power the rest? Check and report back. Or a 5ch amp, or 7ch amp, etc.

Mono amp x 11 means you actually have 11 separate amplifiers, each with their own power supplies. It's kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

For the player, I'll let you figure that one out on your own. GOOD LUCK!

you absolutely cannot hear sounds at 100hz, both sub sonic and hypersonic are not detectable by the ears, but they are such extreme frequencies that you are supposed to be able to feel them.

But wait, is the limit on human hearing 20Hz-20kHz? That is correct. Buying 100kHz speakers doesn't mean you will be able to hear the sound effect that's playing back. This is where Hypersonic Effects come in. We all know what Subsonic Effects are. If you don't, they are low frequency effects that cannot be heard but produce enough vibration to rattle surrounding objects via air movement. Two common Subsonic effects are rumble seats and chest cavity vibrations. Hypersonic Effects instead raise brain activity and produce a psychological feeling of pleasure when listening to audio with high frequency effects.

I doubt you'd feel any psychological feeling of pleasure, but it'd be fun to at least try it out at a dealer to see what the effect would be like. In any case you'd be absolutely right in saying that most all cases this would be a waste.

You're also right in that my goals are ridiculous, I like to shoot for the most optimal, and then work my way down to what is realistic. You have a good point on the amps, I'll look into that, in any case, thanks for your suggestions, we'll see how far I get.

 

[markw]

Good luck finding a source that goes anywhere near that. If anything, it'll be distortion.

Personally, IIWY, I'd lay off the cooking sherry.

 

[panzeroceania]

Good luck finding a source that goes anywhere near that. If anything, it'll be distortion.

Personally, IIWY, I'd lay off the cooking sherry.

heh, I'll try to remember that, no more sherry

with a decent Blu Ray Player, it should output the Japanese 5.1 TrueHD track with the hypersonic effects just fine, that's not an issue, the question is whether the Preamp could handle putting that through DSX for 11.2 channels all at once or if it would crap out.

but yeah, worst case scenario it should work as advertised in 5.1

and yes I like pushing the envelope.

 

[bandphan]

Ill just say that FR of all the gear I know of will not even come close

 

[panzeroceania]

really? Then who on earth where they marketing this product to with the Japanese 5.1 TrueHD track?

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Akira-Blu-ray/1872/

I thought the main barrier to entry was having adequate speakers, assuming you don't have entry level BD or Receiver.

 

[jostenmeat]

No, you can't feel 100khz sound waves either. Sheesh. I actually have read that Akira doesn't have a good soundtrack, and to apply 192khz to it is just a waste of time. Kinda reminds of some shows that don't really have mch audio to speak of, but are still recorded in 7.1 PCM. I think Weeds the show was one of them. Just kinda silly, even 2.0 would be perfectly for something like that.

As for the ability to matrix DSX at 192khz would, unfortunately, be the least of my worries. All this over one single disc that is supposedly not very good anyways. I already fear your processor may* have a hard time handling XT32 for 11.x channels, while matrixing for said 11 channels, while applying dynamic eq, or dynamic volume, or dolby volume, whatever, etc. It's just a lot of processing going on. I might in fact wait to see what Onkyo/Integra does put out for the new pre/pros if I were you. Then get 11ch of outboard amp, maybe a 7ch and a 5ch, with one unused ch.

 

[bandphan]

really? Then who on earth where they marketing this product to with the Japanese 5.1 TrueHD track?

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Akira-Blu-ray/1872/

I thought the main barrier to entry was having adequate speakers, assuming you don't have entry level BD or Receiver.

You answered it

 

[96cobra10101]

A disc that is being sourced from material made in the eighties is going to be pretty limited. The picture may be a little better on blu-ray, but the soundtrack could probably be on cd and you'd not notice anyhting. This movie originally came out in Hi-Fi VHS, and at the time it was pretty up there in the world of animation, but I don't think building a system around this movie would be a good idea, you'll probably be disapointed with the result. Plus, don't you think Ghost in the Shell is a better anime?

 

[panzeroceania]

As for the ability to matrix DSX at 192khz would, unfortunately, be the least of my worries. All this over one single disc that is supposedly not very good anyways. I already fear your processor may* have a hard time handling XT32 for 11.x channels, while matrixing for said 11 channels, while applying dynamic eq, or dynamic volume, or dolby volume, whatever, etc. It's just a lot of processing going on. I might in fact wait to see what Onkyo/Integra does put out for the new pre/pros if I were you. Then get 11ch of outboard amp, maybe a 7ch and a 5ch, with one unused ch.

good points, The reason I'm using Akira as the example source material is because it's pretty much the most extreme case out there, everything else falls under that. I'm all about waiting on seeing what Onkyo will do though, if anything I'd buy the speakers or player first, receivers change a lot in features each year kind of like displays have been these last few years, I'm reluctant to upgrade right now, that's why it's good to plan ahead.

but yeah, even the denon's right now are advertised at 9.2 or 9.3, they only get 11.2 as a side feature so it is doable but there aren't any preamps or receivers being sold as "11.2" machines as of yet.

A disc that is being sourced from material made in the eighties is going to be pretty limited. The picture may be a little better on blu-ray, but the soundtrack could probably be on cd and you'd not notice anyhting. This movie originally came out in Hi-Fi VHS, and at the time it was pretty up there in the world of animation, but I don't think building a system around this movie would be a good idea, you'll probably be disapointed with the result. Plus, don't you think Ghost in the Shell is a better anime?

oh absolutely, if they just used the original track and called it good it wouldn't be, IIRC the audio engineer remastered the whole thing for the hypersonic effects, he actually had to get special equipment for his own studio because no other studio could produce what he was going for, and again, I'm using this as the test material because it's the extreme case.

 

[KEW]

If you have the money to casually toss into your new system, I can kind of go with the idea of getting electronics capable of ridiculous bandwidth. I mean if they are comfortable up to 100kHz, they should be able to produce normal musical content with ample reserves, right? No harm in it as long as you can afford it.

Speakers however are a different issue. There is quite a difference in the sound of speakers within the directly audible range.
Are you willing to sacrifice audible sound quality to get speakers that say they are capable of hitting 100kHz?
I think it is a long shot that the speakers capable of 100kHz and the speakers most pleasing to your ears will be one in the same!

PS- in the late seventies and early eighties some of the audio electronics were designed with extreme frequency responses like 0 to 200,000Hz.

 

[shadyJ]

If Akira's picture had ultraviolet content in it, would you buy a new TV which could reproduce that content even though you had no physical way of experiencing it? Hypersonic content is just as absurd. With subsonic content at least you can feel it (at a loud enough amplitude). I don't ever recall an experiment where anyone could ever tell whether they were being subject to hypersonic frequencies. If you want to take advantage of a hypersonic soundtrack, the first thing you need to upgrade is your own ears.

 

[3db]

If you have the money to casually toss into your new system, I can kind of go with the idea of getting electronics capable of ridiculous bandwidth. I mean if they are comfortable up to 100kHz, they should be able to produce normal musical content with ample reserves, right? No harm in it as long as you can afford it.

Speakers however are a different issue. There is quite a difference in the sound of speakers within the directly audible range.
Are you willing to sacrifice audible sound quality to get speakers that say they are capable of hitting 100kHz?
I think it is a long shot that the speakers capable of 100kHz and the speakers most pleasing to your ears will be one in the same!

PS- in the late seventies and early eighties some of the audio electronics were designed with extreme frequency responses like 0 to 200,000Hz.

Kew, They weren't designed on purpose for that ultra wide bandwidth. The equipment manufacturers just included it in their measurements is all. I had POS Radio Shack intergrated amp at 25W/channel at .25% THD and they measured its frequency response to beyond 200KHz. Why? I haven't the foggiest.



To the OP.

Brush up on this amd then reevaluate your paradigm. What you are asking for makes no sense what so ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Sound/humanear.htm

3D is a gimmick as is DolbyPLz with the height affects. DolbyPLz offers very little return in the overall SQ for the money spent on this crap IHO.