Build them yourself?

[R-Carpenter]

What do you think of the ZR71?
I'm sure the ZRT is a great-great speaker, but at $1k for just the parts and no enclosure that is a pretty steep entry fee into DIY. I was eyeballing the ZR71 which appears to be a similar design (2 way 7" x 1") with cheaper components (half the price). For $500-650 I'd still imagine you'd blow away any sub $1k (maybe even sub $2k) B&M designs.

SR 71 will be just as good or better (granted good cabinet and correct crossover build up) as most 2k studio monitors on the commercial market. I am not very big on metal dome tweeters and ER18. Both good drivers for the money but there are better ones.
ZRT with its elegant crossover design and top notch components are in a different class all together.

 

[RacineBoxer]

SR 71 will be just as good or better (granted good cabinet and correct crossover build up) as most 2k studio monitors on the commercial market. I am not very big on metal dome tweeters and ER18. Both good drivers for the money but there are better ones.
ZRT with its elegant crossover design and top notch components are in a different class all together.

First off thanks for the reply. You and Spkr-bldr are probably my favorite 2 posters on the board, a wealth of knowledge and tons of practical application experience to back it up.


You and Spkr-bldr both seemed a little luke-warm on the ZR71 (didn't say it was a poor choice, but also didn't say it was about best I could do around that price point). Do you have other recommendations that are around that $400-600 price point for parts and are pretty dog-gone simple to build? I'm taking my time to research a DIY project, and it will be my first DIY project (unless I throw together a sub first), but I do think I'm going to pull the trigger on something to build this winter. I had my heart set on the mini-statements but because of complexity, and the fact that I'll be running 1 or maybe even 2 subwoofers, I'm now leaning to a simpler 2 way design.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[russ_l]

Miniliths on HTguide

RacineBoxer- we have a new audio club member who recently built the Statements. That got me seriously thinking about building rather than buying. My favorite DIY at the moment are the Statement Monitors (I need five for multichannel SACD and HT), but I have no woodworking skills or experience in that area. What looks like a much easier build is also at HTGuide; the Miniliths.

The Miniliths are (also) a three-way but look much easier to build than the Statement Monitors. BG has released improved versions of their Neo3 and Neo8 drivers since Javier posted this design. And Parts Express has reduced the price of the SEAS woofer used in the design (was $95, $59 now). I would like to see Javier comment on the Neo improvements but his existing design is very well thought out and implemented.

Good luck going forward.

Russ

PS- I was approved at Home Depot this morning for a credit card. Lots of nice woodworking tools.

 

[Rickster71]

This is a great thread! Really enjoyed reading it.

 

[ErinH]

I'd have to agree with that as well. The ZRT would be a great first build, and might end up being your last build. You can get the full kit from Madisound for a good price. Maybe beef up the cabinet a bit, and you'll have a stunning loudspeaker.

BTW, you can put together a full functioning measurment rig for about $150. Behringer ECM8000 mic for $50, m-audio external soundcard with phantom power mic pre-amp for around $100, then a free demo version of ARTA. It's a bit more once you figure in a few cables, and you need a laptop or PC. But point being it can be done cheap, I've designed a lot of systems with that setup. Mic calibration was on $40 too.

x2 on all accounts.
For my laptop RTA I'm running smaartlive software, an m-audio mobile pre (external soundcard, in a sense) which gives phantom power to the same mic you've mentioned. That's easily the best $150 I've ever spent in the world of audio gear. Perfect for pinpointing trouble areas; especially when you're ears aren't trained as well as others', among many other things.


I'm now looking at building a set of towers out of the illuminator 7" and air circs. The throw, mms, and sd are all a bit more on the 7" illuminator than the standard rev, but they are a hell of a lot bigger (deeper), too. In my mind, I figure that should equate to better low end, maybe enough to negate using a double 7" rev configuration... would probably cut costs down about $200/tower.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

x2 on all accounts.
For my laptop RTA I'm running smaartlive software, an m-audio mobile pre (external soundcard, in a sense) which gives phantom power to the same mic you've mentioned. That's easily the best $150 I've ever spent in the world of audio gear. Perfect for pinpointing trouble areas; especially when you're ears aren't trained as well as others', among many other things.

I'm now looking at building a set of towers out of the illuminator 7" and air circs. The throw, mms, and sd are all a bit more on the 7" illuminator than the standard rev, but they are a hell of a lot bigger (deeper), too. In my mind, I figure that should equate to better low end, maybe enough to negate using a double 7" rev configuration... would probably cut costs down about $200/tower.

Get a free demo copy of ARTA for measuring speakers independant of the room. It has way more measuring power than RTA software, but takes more time to learn how to use and interpret.

I have a pair of Illuminators right now that I'm testing. The big difference I'm noticing is they don't have that touch of chestyness on male vocals that the Revelators, and honestly just about all Scan paper cones have had. I think it's due to the fact that the Illuminator has a sandwich cone, a first for Scan. It has more throw, but don't count on more extension ... so far I'm not seeing that. The Revelators are the best drivers in the World for bass output in a smaller driver, so besting that would be something indeed.

If you want more bass, I'd say the extra $$$ on a 2nd Illuminator could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

First off thanks for the reply. You and Spkr-bldr are probably my favorite 2 posters on the board, a wealth of knowledge and tons of practical application experience to back it up.

Aww schucks

You and Spkr-bldr both seemed a little luke-warm on the ZR71 (didn't say it was a poor choice, but also didn't say it was about best I could do around that price point). Do you have other recommendations that are around that $400-600 price point for parts and are pretty dog-gone simple to build? I'm taking my time to research a DIY project, and it will be my first DIY project (unless I throw together a sub first), but I do think I'm going to pull the trigger on something to build this winter. I had my heart set on the mini-statements but because of complexity, and the fact that I'll be running 1 or maybe even 2 subwoofers, I'm now leaning to a simpler 2 way design.

Thanks for any advice.

What sound do you want? Do you prefer the more detailed and balanced sound, or do you want a lush musical and forgiving sound? Do you want to do a bookshelf, or floorstander? Do you want something designed around the pre-fab Parts Express or Madisound cabs?

 

[R-Carpenter]

I am probably going to get screamed at but Pro Ac 2.5 clone comes to mind at $500. I just sold my old clone. There's plenty of info on cloning. Troels has his own version and it's not a bad sounding speaker.
Drivers.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=148&products_id=931
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=148&products_id=906

Both drivers can be found on ebay for half price. I have to say that in general I've been pretty successful buying drivers on ebay. Never got screwed. I guess that it's such a specialized product that the chances are low.
http://cgi.ebay.com/MATCHED-PAIR-SCAN-SPEAK-D2010-DOME-TWEETER-PERFECT_W0QQitemZ250321799905QQihZ015QQcategoryZ73372QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
There's a version with 9300 tweeter which should be much better.

 

[ErinH]

Get a free demo copy of ARTA for measuring speakers independant of the room. It has way more measuring power than RTA software, but takes more time to learn how to use and interpret.

I have a pair of Illuminators right now that I'm testing. The big difference I'm noticing is they don't have that touch of chestyness on male vocals that the Revelators, and honestly just about all Scan paper cones have had. I think it's due to the fact that the Illuminator has a sandwich cone, a first for Scan. It has more throw, but don't count on more extension ... so far I'm not seeing that. The Revelators are the best drivers in the World for bass output in a smaller driver, so besting that would be something indeed.

If you want more bass, I'd say the extra $$$ on a 2nd Illuminator could be better spent elsewhere.

I actually have a copy of ARTA. What exactly are the benefits? Currently, I’m using smaartlive v6. I also have trueRTA @ the 1/24 resolution. I’ve found smaart is the best, due to the numerous options it gives (weighting, spectrograph, phase, etc).

I used arta a bit, but just quit using it. Care to elaborate on what you’ve said above?



I notice the same thing with my scans. 200-250hz always seems to be a bit hot. Never thought this would be a characteristic of the speaker itself, but it makes perfect sense that you say this.


I was actually saying that if I go with the illuminators, I wouldn’t use a 2nd one. I was thinking that the extra xmax, and sd would almost negate getting a MTM setup of illuminators, whereas I probably would have used that setup with the revelators.

 

[RacineBoxer]

Aww schucks



What sound do you want? Do you prefer the more detailed and balanced sound, or do you want a lush musical and forgiving sound? Do you want to do a bookshelf, or floorstander? Do you want something designed around the pre-fab Parts Express or Madisound cabs?

I've been thinking of answers to these questions since I read your post yesterday and I haven't come up with any yet. Problem is, I tend to enjoy a variety of speakers. Perhaps I haven't spent enough time with high end stuff to really appreciate the nuances. I have some low end Polks, Infinity Beta 20's, PSB Image B25 and some Cerwin Vega's from the 90's. I like them all. FWIW I'm a big fan of 90's rock like Metallica (especially S&M) and Stone Temple Pilots and 70's-80's stuff like Styx, Moody Blues, Led Zeppelin, etc... What I really want is to find a pair of speakers that makes me say wow, those cheap speakers that I use to have really leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Clearwave]

What I really want is to find a pair of speakers that makes me say wow, those cheap speakers that I use to have really leave a lot to be desired.

All of Zaph's design's are documented very well, and I would not hesitate to build any of his designs. I've used the ER18 driver in a past design, and it was a solid performer for the money (although don't expect heavy metal punch from a single 6-7" driver). Since you stated your budget of around $500, there may be better performers out there like the Excel drivers or Scan Speak offerings, but that will bring your budget up considerably obviously. The Seas Prestige tweeters are also a great value for the money.

Currently I'm working on a budget MTM using the SB Acoustics 5" driver and XT25 tweeter. This should also be an interesting option for those on a budget, yet expecting excellent performance from low harmonic distortion drivers that perform close to other high end drives at much less cost.

 

[jliedeka]

I was just looking at Tony Gee's designs on his Humble site. His Humble Statement is insanely well braced but totally impractical for your average woodworker.

In his less ambitious designs, he uses more bracing than a lot of people. I'm using some of his ideas for the Natalie P towers I'm building.

I would recommend a beginning DIYer also check out the Mission Possible forum on HTGuide. There are some pretty smart people there and an active speaker building community. Another good place is the TechTalk forum at Parts Express.

Jim

 

[WmAx]

I was just looking at Tony Gee's designs on his Humble site. His Humble Statement is insanely well braced but totally impractical for your average woodworker.

Insane? It's not quite sufficient IMO, but better than most for sure. You don't have to do crazy bracing shapes, which is mainly what that speaker's cabinet is about. Just use constrain layer walls with energy dampening layers and dense bracing every 3 or 4 inches internally on every axis. Besides, heavy bracing on it's own is not that efficient; you should combine it with constrained layers to get maximum efficiency of reducing wall/panel energy. Here is an example of the inside of a bookshelf speaker that I revised to reduce audible resonance; anyone can do it, and it is incredibly effective:

http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/ascend_cbm170se_wmaxmod/9.jpg

This is MDF outer shell with 1/8" visco-elastic dampening adhered to the MDF. Now, 1/2" re-enforced concrete board (Hardibacker brand) is adhered to the visco-elastic layer. Then runs of steel angle are run in pairs across the top, bottom and sides, and cross braced every 3 or 4" using steel tubing. Nothing fancy. Just incredibly effective.

For internal acoustical dampening, forget fancy diffusion shapes; rather pointless. You will get a better and more effective result by using high grade acoustic absorption materials like high density rock wool mineral board or high density fiberglass board like Owens Corning 705.

-Chris

 

[annunaki]

Insane? It's not quite sufficient IMO, but better than most for sure. You don't have to do crazy bracing shapes, which is mainly what that speaker's cabinet is about. Just use constrain layer walls with energy dampening layers and dense bracing every 3 or 4 inches internally on every axis. Besides, heavy bracing on it's own is not that efficient; you should combine it with constrained layers to get maximum efficiency of reducing wall/panel energy. Here is an example of the inside of a bookshelf speaker that I revised to reduce audible resonance; anyone can do it, and it is incredibly effective:

http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/ascend_cbm170se_wmaxmod/9.jpg

This is MDF outer shell with 1/8" visco-elastic dampening adhered to the MDF. Now, 1/2" re-enforced concrete board (Hardibacker brand) is adhered to the visco-elastic layer. Then runs of steel angle are run in pairs across the top, bottom and sides, and cross braced every 3 or 4" using steel tubing. Nothing fancy. Just incredibly effective.

For internal acoustical dampening, forget fancy diffusion shapes; rather pointless. You will get a better and more effective result by using high grade acoustic absorption materials like high density rock wool mineral board or high density fiberglass board like Owens Corning 705.

-Chris

Chris,

What adhesives are you using withe the steel & hardibacker? Liquid nails? Some sort of epoxy?

 

[WmAx]

Chris,

What adhesives are you using withe the steel & hardibacker? Liquid nails? Some sort of epoxy?

Liquid nails is not used. I use a far stronger adhesive: polyurethane construction adhesive by PLH. It's about 5 USD per tube from Lowe's. It adheres better and gets far harder. It is used to glue the steel angle to the concrete and to glue the aluminum face of the peel n' seal to the concrete. Of course, clean the aluminum side of the peel n' seal with brake parts cleaner or other powerful cleaning solvent and score it thoroughly with 80 grit paper before hand. Note that the polyurethane adhesive is similar to gorilla glue(also a polyurethane base), but far stronger as it has a solid constitution, not one consisting primarily of air cells as gorilla glue does.

For the metal to meal joints, I used Locktite brand metal epoxy. Any high quality metal epoxy shoul be sufficient.

Additional note: if you use steel, be certain to thoroughly clean (using abrasive method) the dull grey oxidize layer off of the steel until it's bare/shiny steel at points where adhesive will be used. Failure to do this will result in a weakened/brittle joint.

-Chris