Bose vs. Wilson, etc.

monkuboy

monkuboy

Audiophyte
Bose pretty much gets slammed in audio forums as being a brand that charges very high prices for very cheap components used in the manufacture of their products, especially speakers. Most often, I hear people saying that their main beef is not as much the sound (even though the sound is often criticized as well) as the high price relative to the junk that is used to make the products.

So let me ask this, and I am not trying to be a troll. What about brands like Wilson that make very expensive stuff? I have heard both great and bad things about their speakers. One of the bad things is that their measurements are not all that good. I've only heard them at shows and thought they sounded pretty good but would never pay the going rate for them. People say a $2,000 Bose system is way overpriced because of the cost of the materials. How about a $27,000 pair of Wilson speakers? Relatively speaking, is that any different?

I figure I will get some answers like, "because Wilsons sound good and Bose don't" or that the quality of the materials in Wilson, including the cabinets, justifies the cost. But then for Bose speakers, lots of people like Bose and think they are the "best." Why? Because Bose puts their money into marketing rather than in the cost of materials for their products. But for super expensive speakers (Wilsons in the scheme of things are probably just "expensive" but not "super expensive) - what are you really paying for? Can the materials cost that much? And though they may sound very good, certainly a lot better than a pair of Bose, does that make them worth 10x or 20x more? Or 10x or 20x more than highly respected brands such as Salk, Philharmonic or Ascend, to name a few?

Is it that the really expensive speakers don't get the same flak as Bose just because they are really expensive speakers?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
The really expensive speakers pay off the reviewers of the mainstream mags! Maybe not in actual $, maybe in advertising or in other ways. It's pretty dang shady though.

Yes, Wilsons are over-priced for the sound quality that you actually get.

Take that $ and buy a similarly priced KEF instead!
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I don't know how over-priced Wilson speakers are. For low-volume, expensive products that require a dealer to do demos in a premium environment, 50% gross margins are within the realm of normal. So for a $27,000 pair of speakers Wilson probably nets maybe $7,000 per speaker. Maybe. Wilson seems to spend their money on cabinets and finishes, and things a non-expert can see and feel. All of that, built by hand in Utah, is expensive. Like CNC-machined aluminum ports. I remember my old Legacy Audio Focus having cardboard ports. The objective reviews I've read seem to indicate Wilson spends some money getting the crossovers right too. Wilson's drivers, on the other hand, I've always been completely unimpressed with for the price. Revel's and B&W's high-end full-custom drivers are more impressive, engineering-wise, especially the tweeters, as judged by the outcome of test reports.

My bottom line is that I think Wilson is spending to be impressive to wealthy non-technical audiophiles who buy speakers the way they do expensive wines. I haven't heard a Wilson speaker in about six years, but when I did I wasn't impressed, mostly by the fact that my demo recordings seemed to have a common coloration to them. (One of my most important speaker listening test criteria is how different selected recordings sound from one-another, in spectral balance, imaging, and how much you can hear the original venue.) I'd rather have a Wilson speaker than a Bose speaker, but beyond that, meh.
 
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Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
But for super expensive speakers what are you really paying for? Can the materials cost that much?
Off the top of my head, there are a few factors that can contribute. Exotic materials can certainly add to the cost, particularly if they're difficult to work with. Labor also makes a big difference; consider a speaker that is hand built by a master craftsman in the first world is likely versus one that rolls off a Chinese assembly line. Then there's the matter of economies of scale, which affects both the costs of materials/parts, as well as how much overhead cost is carried by each speaker.

All that said, one should keep in mind that products aren't priced according to how much they cost to make. Obviously a company has to make a profit to survive; however, the overriding factor is what the market will bear, i.e. what you convince people your product is worth.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Both brands are relatively exorbitant. And both are relatively not the best sounding. I wouldn't buy either brand even if I were a billionaire.

Although Wilson speakers probably measure kind of like Bose speakers in terms of on-axis/ off-axis FR, Wilson speakers do sound much better.
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Imho salk ss8 ($8k) sounds better than Wilson Maxx3 ($100k). Nuff said
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I would agree with you that both are over-priced.
The reason Bose catches so much more flak here is that they are a high volume sales operation. And while they are grossly overpriced they are not so expensive, thus they are often targeting the first time buyer (or maybe someone who can just now afford to move up from their HTiB). The build quality of Pioneer's $130 ea. FS-52 cabinet is much better than that of a modern Bose 901 (the older ones were solidly built). On top of that, they closely regulate pricing for their products, so you almost always pay MSRP.
As people who have a passion for sound quality, we hate to see people buying Bose and be convinced they have a great sounding system. Sooner or later, they will hear a good system and realize their's is far from great.
The unique aspect of many Bose products is their compact lifestyle size. There is no getting around the fact that size will compromise sound quality.
While there are a few companies that compete in this arena, it is not mainstream in the US. Europeans have more space constraints, so have more products. A couple of those companies are available from Acessories4Less (Focal and KEF), others are Canton and Mordant Short.

Here is a link that includes some systems that I would quickly put up against Bose in the lifestyle arena:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/spksystems/speakers/speaker-packages/1.html
 
monkuboy

monkuboy

Audiophyte
Wilson speakers go back a ways. I didn't realize they were featured in The Forbidden Planet.

 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Bose pretty much gets slammed in audio forums as being a brand that charges very high prices for very cheap components used in the manufacture of their products, especially speakers. Most often, I hear people saying that their main beef is not as much the sound (even though the sound is often criticized as well) as the high price relative to the junk that is used to make the products.

So let me ask this, and I am not trying to be a troll. What about brands like Wilson that make very expensive stuff? I have heard both great and bad things about their speakers. One of the bad things is that their measurements are not all that good. I've only heard them at shows and thought they sounded pretty good but would never pay the going rate for them. People say a $2,000 Bose system is way overpriced because of the cost of the materials. How about a $27,000 pair of Wilson speakers? Relatively speaking, is that any different?

I figure I will get some answers like, "because Wilsons sound good and Bose don't" or that the quality of the materials in Wilson, including the cabinets, justifies the cost. But then for Bose speakers, lots of people like Bose and think they are the "best." Why? Because Bose puts their money into marketing rather than in the cost of materials for their products. But for super expensive speakers (Wilsons in the scheme of things are probably just "expensive" but not "super expensive) - what are you really paying for? Can the materials cost that much? And though they may sound very good, certainly a lot better than a pair of Bose, does that make them worth 10x or 20x more? Or 10x or 20x more than highly respected brands such as Salk, Philharmonic or Ascend, to name a few?

Is it that the really expensive speakers don't get the same flak as Bose just because they are really expensive speakers?
If you think about the differences in how Bose makes their speakers vs others, little plastic boxed speakers that are mass-produced cost very little, especially when they have cheap drivers. Bose never used anything that would be considered "revolutionary" WRT their drivers, but the configuration was very different from what other manufacturers used. Set up properly, the old 901 cold sound pretty good, but only if the proprietary equalizer was used, the amplifier power was adequate and the speakers' position was chosen through a lot of trial and error. Then, there's the fact that the drivers couldn't handle a ton of power for very long and you have an accident waiting to happen.

Speakers require the initial design, based on whatever information is available to the designer/builder and what they choose to use. Some don't seem to use much of the info, most do. Then, there is the testing (if they decide to), the revisions and more testing, possibly more revisions and making some pieces for evaluation by others. They may not be finished the same as the final version, but they really need to sound the same if they expect to sell what they make. If the driver manufacturer decides to discontinue something, the process may need to start from the beginning, even though the manufacturer is just about ready to go to market. If they have enough money to have drivers made to their spec, that's great but it doesn't happen in all cases.

What materials will be used? Better not try to use Brazilian Rosewood, Ebony or other species that aren't harvested in accordance with the Lacy Act and the requirements that go with it. Gibson Musical Instruments were raided twice by the Department of Justice, fined and materials were confiscated. It's a good thing they didn't destroy the materials, because the charges were dropped after proof was offered that Gibson acted lawfully.

The next part has to do with the how, where and who of building the speaker cabinets and their assembly- they need a place that will allow them to build at whatever capacity they need, to buy materials Just In Time, machinery and tools, adhesives, consumable supplies, the orders for drivers/crossover components/hardware, packaging, an office of some kind and hiring people to do the manufacturing if the owner(s) won't be doing it. Want to use nitrocellulose lacquer? Not if the EPA finds out- they require an incredibly expensive spray booth, if the manufacturer will be using this finish, but much better alternatives are available, now. In any case, the builder needs to consider the environmental aspects, too.

Making a small number of speakers is expensive when the price/pair cost is examined, as steve81 mentioned.
 
A

andy19191

Enthusiast
Neither Bose nor Wilson are speakers designed for the typical reader of home audio forums and so one is likely to get a fairly one sided view of their abilities from people who have no interest in purchasing them.

Although I have zero interest in the products from either company I can appreciate that Bose provide decent value for those looking for OK performance, good ergonomics and good standing among the readers of Sunday magazines. I am a bit more baffled by the appeal of Wilson that manufacture garish products I would no want in my living space with a significantly less neutral sound than substantially cheaper products. But my tastes are not everybody's tastes and Wilson seem to be successful at providing what significant numbers of people want and so good luck to them.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For those looking for Bose cube aesthetic, but much better prices, try the $79 Boston Acoustics Soundware XS cube speakers.

 
U

utubecomment21

Audioholic Intern
Exotic materials can certainly add to the cost, particularly if they're difficult to work with.

Yes .... becasue the price of kryptonite has gone through the roof these last few years.

ELabor also makes a big difference; consider a speaker that is hand built by a master craftsman in the first world is likely versus one that rolls off a Chinese assembly line.
I think you'll find that in the vast majority of cases, the opposite is true. It's cheaper to produce ones own rubbish driver instead of buying from the partsexpress parts bin.


As for the other excuse of manufacturers modding their own speakers or having a speaker built to their own specs, usually there's little to no premium in swapping one component for another. But in the car audio world one manufacturer claimed this, in order to justify speakers sourced from alibaba and the ridiculous price hike.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/158768-ad-designs.html

I think the following is good advice

Is their MSRP higher than it should be? Maybe. But as a consumer, it is your responsibility to educate yourself.
 
jdmccall56

jdmccall56

Audiophyte
I just own a few Bose products (Companion 2, 161, VCS-10, AE2, 201, 901) but I feel all have been satisfactory more or less. As for value, same thing. I think some models are outstanding values while others maybe not as much.

Wilsons are out of my price range, for sure. The only ones I've heard were WATT/Puppys a number of years ago. They sounded great, but I didn't feel they were very high on the value scale.
 
Good4it

Good4it

Audioholic Chief
Costs more mean sounds better, or at least it's supposed to! Unfortunately that's not always the case.
 

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