Biwired Speakers to Receiver

[FalsEye05]

My Panasonic SA-AK600 Mini system just died (the infamous "F61" error), and now I'm left with a pair of decent sounding, bi-wired main speakers (SB-AK600).

I was wondering if I can still use these with a non-biwired stereo/5.1 receiver (one set of L and one set of R main speaker terminals)? If they can be used, how would I connect them?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Seth=L]

I would suggest replacing the speakers entirely. If you connect them to a receiver with both wires going to the same terminal it will probably present a tough load for a receiver, especially a budget receiver. You would likely get better sound if you spent $50 on Ebay on some speakers than using the Panasonics. (not saying you should spend just $50 on speakers.)

 

[j_garcia]

I agree with Seth. Can you use those speakers? It shouldn't really be an issue, but there is a good chance they will be the weakest link in a new system.

 

[OttoMatic]

My Panasonic SA-AK600 Mini system just died (the infamous "F61" error), and now I'm left with a pair of decent sounding, bi-wired main speakers (SB-AK600).

I was wondering if I can still use these with a non-biwired stereo/5.1 receiver (one set of L and one set of R main speaker terminals)? If they can be used, how would I connect them?

Thanks for the help.

Hi there,

How do you mean "bi-wired"? Are there two pairs of speaker cables going to each speaker? I wouldn't expect that in a mini-system. Do you know the impedance of the speakers? It may be marked on the back as an "ohm" number, or perhaps in the owner's manual.

In general, it should be possible to get them going with a "normal" receiver, but as suggested, they might be a weak link.

Lemme know...

 

[FalsEye05]

I know its a long shot even posting a question about such budget speakers here, but if they still work... then why not?

Otto: Yes, they have 2 pairs of wires coming from the speakers. I know its unusual, but I guess Panasonic still uses bi-wiring on some of their mini systems. The Imepdance is 8 ohms, if that helps any.

 

[OttoMatic]

Hi FalsEye05,

I had a look at the manual, and I see the connections. In one picture, there is a notation for "Subwoofer". Also, in the specs section, there are power output ratings for "Subwoofer" and then "Front", "Center" and "Surround". I'm starting to think that one of the speaker cables attached to your main speakers is for "Subwoofer" and one is for "Front" (i.e., whatever other "main" drivers are in that speaker).

In the Specs, the "Subwoofer" is rated at 78 W into 4 ohms, while the "Front" is rated at 48 W into 6 ohms.

So, either way, I think they are actually bi-amping this system (I cannot tell if its passively or actively bi-amped). I would probably not recommend using these speakers for any other "normal" system; we just don't know how they are set up. That said, I think you're still free to experiment. I don't think it will kill your system right off; I have faith that current-technology receivers will go into protect mode if they have a problem like a speaker with that. If you do, I would suggest to simply connect the positive and negative wires together and attach them to the appropriate set of binding posts on your new receiver. You may present a rather low load to the receiver (4 ohms in parallel with 6 ohms is going to be less than 3 ohms, I'd guess (no calculator here)), so it might complain about that. I do believe you'll get sound, but I don't think it will be right, even if you convince yourself it sounds OK.

My advice -- get some new speakers with your new receiver!

Have fun!

 

[Nick250]

I agree with Jeff and Garcia and everyone else, take the bi-wire money and put it in your new speakers fund. Speakers are almost everything in a system for sound quality. If you are happy with the old speakers, buy an inexpensive receiver for around $200.

 

[OttoMatic]

take the bi-wire money

FWIW, he's not asking about going to a bi-wire scheme, his current speakers already appear to require it. He just want to see if he can continue to use the speakers he has, most likely in order to fit his budget...

Here was his second post, after a couple responses that didn't address the original question:

I know its a long shot even posting a question about such budget speakers here, but if they still work... then why not?

Did you read my analysis?

To address a previous post, a "normal" bi-wired implementation will NOT present a tough load to the amplifier. It will present the same load as a normal non-bi-wired setup.

Not trying to be a jerk, just FYI.

 

[pbarach1]

I would suggest replacing the speakers entirely. If you connect them to a receiver with both wires going to the same terminal it will probably present a tough load for a receiver, especially a budget receiver.

Why would it present a tough load? Wouldn't this actually reduce the load, because you have effectively doubled the gauge of the wire connected to each of the output terminals, thus decreasing resistance?

 

[OttoMatic]

Why would it present a tough load? Wouldn't this actually reduce the load, because you have effectively doubled the gauge of the wire connected to each of the output terminals, thus decreasing resistance?

In a true bi-wire setup, yes, you should theoretically cut the resistance of the wire in half. However, the impedance of the wire it negligible. I would suspect it would measure <0.1 ohm, unless the run is unreasonably long.

However, reducing a load (making it a smaller impedance) does make it more difficult for an amplifier to drive -- the smaller load demands more power, and lots of budget amps can't supply it.

In general, a bi-wire setup isn't going to present anything of a different load at the amplifier terminals. Aside from the decreased wire impedance due to the increased wire size, the electical connections are identical whether two sets of wire run back to the amp, or only one set is used and the speaker's terminals are strapped together. Can you hear a difference in a bi-wire setup? I haven't, but some might. Either way, it doesn't matter for this discussion. From an electrical engineering point of view, the connection is the same, and the impedance is the same (except for theh discussed difference in the impedance of the wire).

 

[PENG]

From an electrical engineering point of view, the connection is the same, and the impedance is the same (except for theh discussed difference in the impedance of the wire).

Otto, I can agree to everything else you said but not this one. It is precisely from an electrical theory standpoint where there is a difference. Yes if you do a search on the web you will find one or more articles that attempted to prove the otherwise but those article would not likely stand up to academic scrutiny. You will find more articles, including many published by reputable maufacturers such as B&W and Vandersteen that support the fact that bi-wiring is electrically different than wiring with a single run of wire to the amp with the strap at the speaker terminals connected.

There had been numerous debate on this topic but not always based on electrical theory.

 

[OttoMatic]

Hi PENG,

I would agree that there may be some arguable and subtle differences, but I think that overall, the load presented to the amplifier (the overall impedance) will be pretty much the same.

If I have some free time tonight, I'll measure both implementations and report my results.

 

[PENG]

Hi PENG,

I would agree that there may be some arguable and subtle differences, but I think that overall, the load presented to the amplifier (the overall impedance) will be pretty much the same.

If I have some free time tonight, I'll measure both implementations and report my results.

Not really arguable as such (subtle it may be), theories are theories, e.g. Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, Ampere's law, Superposition theorem, Thevenin's theorem, Fourier's analysis etc. Either you believe in it, or you don't. If you have the instruments (obviously you know a multimeter won't do the job) you should be able to show that the high frequency signals will flow through one pair of wires while the low frequency signals will take the other path, enforced by the impedance characteristics of the crossover networks that are separated at the speakers when the shorting straps are removed. Whether this is fact or fiction, it does not mean the bi-wire system will sound different to the human ears.

In terms of audio differences, there are going to be people who claim they can hear the difference, but I suspect most cannot. Regardless, I thank you for being open minded and trying to find the truth.

 

[OttoMatic]

Not really arguable as such (subtle it may be), theories are theories, e.g. Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, Ampere's law, Superposition theorem, Thevenin's theorem, Fourier's analysis etc. Either you believe in it, or you don't.

Yeah, I'm OK with all of those (even if I've forgotten some of their details or applications! )

If you have the instruments (obviously you know a multimeter won't do the job)

But I can certainly use a multimeter to measure the DC resistance of a pair of speakers, and that's really my only assertion up to this point: that the impedance "seen" by the amplifier terminals is the same in either case (with a little wiggle room for the impedance of the cable itself, which is negligible). Reactance should also measure the same at the amplifier terminals.

you should be able to show that the high frequency signals will flow through one pair of wires while the low frequency signals will take the other path, enforced by the impedance characteristics of the crossover networks that are separated at the speakers when the shorting straps are removed.

Here I claim potential ignorance to some of the finer details. But here's what I'm thinking:

1. Let's call the all the speaker wires zero reactance from DC to infinity, just to make it easier.
2. The voltage measured at the amplifier terminals must be the same as the voltage at the speaker terminals; there is no resistance in the wire to cause a voltage drop.
3. The crossover components and drivers behind the speaker terminals are different; therefore, they will draw different amounts of current.
4. Different amounts of current into the crossovers means different amounts of power consumed by the "top" and "bottom" of the speaker.
5. Therefore, there are different amounts of current flowing through each pair of speaker cables, as well as different amounts of power.
6. I don't know if that means that

   high frequency signals will flow through one pair of wires while the low frequency signals will take the other path

   because anytime I consider or measure frequency, it's voltage-based. If we looked at the signal on a scope, its frequency is defined.
7. Since the voltage at the amplifier terminals is the same as the voltage at the speakers terminals (#2 above), and we measure frequency in voltage, then the frequencies delivered to the speaker terminals are the same, even though the amount of power may not be.

In terms of audio differences, there are going to be people who claim they can hear the difference, but I suspect most cannot.

Agreed, and I'm neither for it nor against it -- I'm definitely NOT trying to tell someone they're going to get some great benefit out of bi-wiring.

Regardless, I thank you for being open minded and trying to find the truth.

Thanks, same to you.

 

[PENG]

Otto, just in case you don't know, the bi-wire topic had been debated to the nth degree on this forum. To avoid appearing to hijack the thread, I may pm you instead. Thanks again.

 

[bondj303]

Can one use "Bi-wired" for Bi-amp purpose?

I just came across this thread. I too have the same system, with the speakers lying in my home. My system works inconsistently (suddenly no sound comes out of it at all, works okay when I disconnect the power and repower it, but the cycle repeats). Anyhow,...

FYI: I have used the speakers with a regular receiver and they worked fine, specifically it caused no problems to my receiver (I plugged them into an old AIWA AV-NW30 receiver) or my speakers.

I recently got a panasonic 6.1 receiver system which supports bi-amp speakers (bi-amp feature is used by connecting speakers to both front A & front B speakers and having both A & B on... I don't have the exact model # with me now but I think it is Panasonic SA-XR70S).

I was wondering whether I can use these "bi-wired" speakers for this purpose: connecting the red-black cable from each speaker to front A speaker input and the grey-other cable to the front B speaker input.

Thanks.