Bi-amp/Bi-wire... What is what please?

S

skytra7

Audioholic Intern
I am a hifi novice and I have a pair of TDL speakers that can be BI-WIRED. I will be buying the denon 1906 a/v amp that can BI-AMP.

I'd really love somebody to tell me which of these two features that I should use? I'm so confused. Which is better than the other? Can I use these two features at the same time or not? I would be grateful for any help given. Thx
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
Biamping and biwiring are two completely different things, and subject to much debate when you consider biwiring.

Biamping, yes there can be substancial benefit to biamping if done properly. You have to ensure that the levels are matched between the 2 amplifiers. In other words, if you use a much larger amp to run your mid woofers and a smaller amp to run your tweeters, there can be a level difference during playback where your tweeters are too quiet (of course, they aren't getting as much power). It's suggested to use identical amps when biamping, or at least close enough to compliment each other. A notable exception to this 'rule' is using a tube amp to run the high & mid frequency drivers and a solid state amp to run the low frequency drivers; that can be a pretty nice set up as you combine the low frequency power of solid state transistor amps (tube amps don't handle low frequencies quite as well as SS) with the silkiness of a tube amp for the high & mid frequencies.

Next with biamping is the type of crossover used: active vs. passive.
An active crossover splits the signal before it gets to the amplifier. In other words, it splits the signal into a high frequency signal and a low frequency signal, each of which can then be directed to their appropriate amplifier. This provides a more efficient means of amplification for each signal path as the amp driving the low frequency drivers only amplifies the low frequencies in the signal as that's all their input signal contains...
With a passive crossover (such as a crossover built into your speakers for example, with multiple binding posts on the back of your speaker labeled high & low), a full range signal (both highs and lows) is sent to both amplifiers. Each amplifier then has to amplify that whole frequency band and send it to the to the corresponding binding posts, where the internal crossover passively eliminates the unwanted frequencies and allows pass only the highs for the tweeters, and lows for the woofers. In this set up, you'll still be able to deliver more power to your speakers than if you used just one of the amps, but each amp is still working to amplifier the entire signal, so again it's not as efficient as the active crossover method described above.

Biwiring: this may just start a debate! Honestly, I have not heard a difference in biwiring. As long as the resistance is low enough in your speakers cables when you single wire your speakers, I wouldn't worry about biwiring unless you just want to experiment with it. That being said, if you do want to try it, nothing anybody can say on this forum should stop you. Just don't go buy overpriced speaker cable to try it! Again, I haven't ever noticed a difference, and I don't currently biwire my speakers; maybe I would if I still had a surplus of speaker cable, but I'm not rushing out to buy more to do so. Long story short, anybody would be hard pressed to prove if biwiring makes a difference vs. using a single run of low resistance cable.
Brad
 
S

skytra7

Audioholic Intern
One amp that can BI-AMP?

Thanks for your reply zildjian, I am purchasing denon 1906 and it can bi-amp somehow buy using the surround back channels.

Do I still need to to follow the same saftey precautions here? The DENON amp says it "amplifier provides up to 85 watts into all channels". At the back of my TDL speakers there is a sticker which say the reccomende amp power rating should be between 20 - 110 watts. I'll probably ask at the shop when picking up my amp. THX again.
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
You'll be fine w/ the denon & your speakers wattage compatibility wise.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
zildjian wrote:
but each amp is still working to amplifier the entire signal, so again it's not as efficient as the active crossover method described above.
Not sure this is entirely correct, I thought that in a passive Xover the amp will only be amplifying the frequencies that haven't been cut off with the Xover, because, I think, past the Xover point the impedance increases to a point where there is virtually no current draw, hence no drain on the amp at those frequencies.

The biggest benefit I see with active(normally user adjustable) Xovers for speakers is it allows you to dial in the best Xover points(and slope) for you situation/room to blend the different speakers together taking into account room effects. This can be tough for the average consumer without equipment like spectrum analyzer's and such.

cheers:)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
skytra7 said:
I'd really love somebody to tell me which of these two features that I should use? ... I would be grateful for any help given. Thx

Neither as there is no real point to either. Forget about it.
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
Of course there is a point to biamping. It may not be ideal for all speaker/amp combo's, but tangible benefits can be acheived in many situations. I have found improvements in doing so with a Denon receiver (3806) and so did Gene the founder of this website. I would suggest you try it for yourself and see what you hear as that is all that is important anyhow.

Here's what Gene had to say about biamping with his Denon receiver... source see post #8
The truth is the mid/high portion of a speaker dissipates very little power, especially the tweeter so in reality 1/5 the power will goto the top portion of the speaker and the bulk of it will be consumed by the woofer. By biamping the receiver, you can yield better control of the bass portion of the speaker since it has a dedicated amp to just run that.

It doesn't hurt to try both ways to see which you prefer. I have first hand experience biamping the Denon AVR-5803 with a pair of RBH 1266-LSE's and can tell you it sounded better biamped than running just one amp to each speaker. The bass control and definition was improved.
Also, if anything is unclear regarding biamping here are two links skrivis posted back in that same thread that were pretty good descriptions.
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp2.htm

Hope this helps.
Brad
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Does the OP have a 5803 and RBH 1266s? I seriously doubt the 1906 pseudo bi amp thing will make any difference in this situation, but there is no harm in trying and maybe it will be fun. I think it is important to mention though, things that actually will make noticeably differences like speaker and sub placement and room acoustics. The bi amping thing should be near the bottom of the list of ways to improve sound in most all set ups IMO.

Nick
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
Nick250 said:
Does the OP have a 5803 and RBH 1266s? I seriously doubt the 1906 pseudo bi amp thing will make any difference in this situation, but there is no harm in trying and maybe it will be fun. I think it is important to mention though, things that actually will make noticeably differences like speaker and sub placement and room acoustics. The bi amping thing should be near the bottom of the list of ways to improve sound in most all set ups IMO.

Nick
I agree w/ you Nick, in this set up, probably won't make any difference; on the other hand, I don't want to poopoo to someone the whole idea of biamping. Yes I said poopoo... :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
zildjian said:
Of course there is a point to biamping. It may not be ideal for all speaker/amp combo's, but tangible benefits can be acheived in many situations. I have found improvements in doing so with a Denon receiver (3806) and so did Gene the founder of this website. I would suggest you try it for yourself and see what you hear as that is all that is important anyhow.

Here's what Gene had to say about biamping with his Denon receiver... source see post #8


Also, if anything is unclear regarding biamping here are two links skrivis posted back in that same thread that were pretty good descriptions.
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp2.htm

Hope this helps.
Brad

Well, gene can have his opinion:D Is he somehow infallible on things audio???
That amp will not have a problem controlling the low driver what so ever. What kind of control are you talking about anyhow? Having sufficient power? Damping?
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
mtrycrafts said:
Well, gene can have his opinion:D Is he somehow infallible on things audio???
That amp will not have a problem controlling the low driver what so ever. What kind of control are you talking about anyhow? Having sufficient power? Damping?
Yes, the man is infallible. How can you question Gene? Geezus Marty, you'll need to start up your own HT forum after that quote. For God's sake, be careful. :eek:

Anywho, what I've found out with my 3805, is that I get cleaner sound if I remove my straps on my bi-ampable Polk towers and run the top half by itself compared to running them strapped. I don't realize as much bass as I'd like running them strapped, and I've got 120 watts per side in stereo mode.

I've tried running just the bass end unstrapped with the two channels, and the dual 7" woofers in my RTi10's don't come close to one 12" sub, so it's just not worth the hassle to bi-amp in my situation. I've got glorified speaker stands for my so-called RTi6 tops. :rolleyes:

Yes, it's my fault for buying pigs for towers, but they were floor models on clearance.

My suggestion - if you really need to biamp, get a separate amplifier and use it to run your demanding towers. Use your AVR to power the rest of your HT setup. After all, there is still only one power supply, two capacitors, and one heat sink in an AVR. The more you tax it, the hotter it gets. And don't go out and get a class a/b power amp rated the same as your AVR - weighing under 40lbs (there's my and my weight thingy). You won't notice a difference. The older mammoth power amps on ebay for ~$350 are every bit as good as today's pro amps - without the fan noise. Just my .03 ;)
 
V

Vynilforlife

Audioholic Intern
mtrycrafts said:
Well, gene can have his opinion:D Is he somehow infallible on things audio???
That amp will not have a problem controlling the low driver what so ever. What kind of control are you talking about anyhow? Having sufficient power? Damping?
It's quite obvious you need an amp for each driver. How else can it possibly sound good?
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Yes, the man is infallible. How can you question Gene? Geezus Marty, you'll need to start up your own HT forum after that quote. For God's sake, be careful. :eek:
Buckeyefan has a good point; I questioned Gene once, and he put a standing wave curse on my HT system. seriously... :(
can't tell you how many HTiB systems I had to burn in sacrifice to get rid of those standing waves. (ok 47...)
 
A

audiofox

Full Audioholic
Here is an interesting web site on the benefits of biamplification which goes into some detail about the efects on IM distortion, the need for active filters, etc. I am not asserting anything pro or con, just providing more information for those interested in the subject.

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
audiofox said:
Here is an interesting web site on the benefits of biamplification which goes into some detail about the efects on IM distortion, the need for active filters, etc. I am not asserting anything pro or con, just providing more information for those interested in the subject.

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

"Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
The answer is ... Yes, otherwise you are not really biamping at all


Right up front, on top of their page. this was not asked about not mentioned. But, what was discussed is passive bi-amping. By that link, that is not real bi-amping.
Also, his first block diagram should have used an active crossover to handle the mid and hi and a stereo amp. But, that would be tri-amped.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Yes, the man is infallible. How can you question Gene? Geezus Marty, you'll need to start up your own HT forum after that quote. For God's sake, be careful. :eek:
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Did I really type that??? What was I thinking? I see the error of my ways and ask him for forgiveness. How many rosaries will he ask???

Just my .03 ;)

Inflation has hit this board too:D
 
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