Best subs for strictly music that'll make me feel the drums?

[William Lemmerhirt]

And yet one of my favourite speakers for kick drum "chest thump" was the Boston A400 - a full range speaker sporting two 8" woofers.

Ok that’s fine. But was the seating distance? Room volume? Master volume etc?
The OP is in 5000 cubic feet. It’s safe to assume a listening distance of at least 10’, and he’s already stated that his two 12” sealed subs don’t have enough output. Many times the problem is the equipment, but imo this is at least as much a case of the room and overall airspace.
Also, his cornwalls would destroy those old bostons in dynamic range and output. I think your point is apples to oranges.

 

[ryanosaur]

He needs some Devastators.

 

[dlaloum]

Ok that’s fine. But was the seating distance? Room volume? Master volume etc?
The OP is in 5000 cubic feet. It’s safe to assume a listening distance of at least 10’, and he’s already stated that his two 12” sealed subs don’t have enough output. Many times the problem is the equipment, but imo this is at least as much a case of the room and overall airspace.
Also, his cornwalls would destroy those old bostons in dynamic range and output. I think your point is apples to oranges.

Large open showroom... sort of a hall space... listening distance from the speakers was probably 3m (at a guess... it was 1985... a while back!) - there were equipment racks behind the speakers, probably a good 2.5m to the wall behind them - and very open space in every other direction.

We once had them in the ballroom of a major hotel for the annual audio show - and they could fill the ballroom with rocking music... without sounding strained (we did have complaints from a couple of floors up.... we could only crank them after the show had ended for the night, so it was relatively late )

Don't feel like SPL's were an issue!

 

[lovinthehd]

Been some interesting reviews of that one:

KEF KC62 review

Award-winning subwoofer bends the laws of physics

www.whathifi.com

KEF KC62 Subwoofer Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Can a small little subwoofer, the KC62 from KEF keep up with the big boys with an enclosure about the size of a basketball?

hometheaterhifi.com

Yes I do mean acoustic suspension from the old days (still current in designs like the KC62, or the Gallo TR1/TR3) - it uses a softer woofer surround - less resistance/less distortion - but still achieves the required suspension action through the compression of the air within the sealed Box/Cylinder...
Most of the woofers available today, are designed for ported designs - so they have much heavier suspension surrounds.

It does have constraints... if you consider max SPL output of 105db a constraint.

If the listener is a fan of the Harman Curve with +10db in the bass, and uses an average listening volume of 85db - then it isn't a constraint - you still have 20db of headroom
My own average listening level is around 75db... so this would be far from constraining !!

But tastes, and the ability to bear loud sounds, varies with the listener - some might seek max SPL's of 110db or more... - not me!

Also I strongly believe that many (most?) subwoofers sacrifice distortion for SPL's - they go low and loud, but they also have very high THD - which matters not at all for a home theatre LFE subwoofer, intended for explosions and earthquakes.... but if you want to get the tone of a double bass or Harp right, (bottom note fundamentals of 41Hz and 31Hz respectively) - then most of the "effects" focused subs are a bit of a "blunt tool".

there's a discussion of sealed vs ported on the SVS website:

Sealed vs. Ported Subwoofers

Our most common question answered in a few simple steps – learn what’s right for your system and listening needs.

www.svsound.com

To quote: "A properly designed sealed subwoofer will typically exhibit less phase rotation, lower group delay, and reduced ringing in the time domain. Sealed cabinet subwoofers are generally more accurate in frequency response and better at rendering instrumentals in a convincing way. These characteristics make the sealed subwoofer a natural choice for critical music applications and are typically described by enthusiasts as sounding tighter and more articulate or musical, with less perceived overhang. "

Downside: "a sealed subwoofer will typically have considerably lower dynamic output limits than a ported subwoofer in the same family/price range. "

I'm a fan of the sealed genre.... - the SVS article goes into further detail on the advantages of the ported genre... they make both.

In a large room a small sub is just not going to cut it IMHO. He's already got a pair of 12" subs that exceed the capabilities of the KC62. KC62 in a small room with limited extension and spl goals, perhaps. The subjective reviews are largely useless IMO. If the sub isn't accurate at 31 or 41hz that's one thing, but "tone"? SVS' own subs in terms of issues between ported and sealed models is minimal and seems they still cater to some "audiophile" notions about subs (they don't really say it's an issue with their own subs, do they?). Enthusiasts who use terms like tighter, articulate and especially musical I just dismiss when it comes to subs....

 

[dlaloum]

Enthusiasts who use terms like tighter, articulate and especially musical I just dismiss when it comes to subs....

In the days when I ran Quad ESL's - I tried valiantly to match different subs to the ESL's - but it never sounded right.... the subjective impression was that the subs were always that bit too slow... loose... the sound was all too clearly NOT cut from the same cloth.

It is worth noting that I had the same complaint of the flagship hybrid ESL from Martin Logan - yeah it was impressive - but the bass and the mids/highs just didn't gel together (their all ESL speaker on the other hand did an excellent job... but it was SPL limited in the bass)

In those days (2001 to 2008) I had no DSP tools, or digital measurement tools, so it was all by ear and tweaking.
It is possible that the problem might have been overcome with proper adjustment using such tools.
However, at the time, sealed subs consistently got closer to the mark - the clarity and the verissimilitude of low bass instruments was definitely superior with sealed/acoustic suspension subs.

I am still looking forward to DLBC becoming available on an affordable platform so I can experiment further on the bass end of my setup!

 

[lovinthehd]

What kind of gear were you using for sub integration, tho?

ps Sub location techniques?

 

[dlaloum]

What kind of gear were you using for sub integration, tho?

ps Sub location techniques?

Ignorance and the adjustments available on the sub...

Shifting it around the room trying to get something decent - nothing worked

Also tried several different brands...

 

[lovinthehd]

Ignorance and the adjustments available on the sub...

Shifting it around the room trying to get something decent - nothing worked

Also tried several different brands...

Better ways to go about it....

 

[dlaloum]

Better ways to go about it....

There are now - and the information on how to go about it is readily available.. now - it was not so easily found 20 years ago!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Not to mention that in the last 20 years, subwoofer quality has risen dramatically. Back in the early 00’s, higher Q, higher tuned ported fart boxes were very common. Just about any subwoofer today is more linear and controlled than those old crappers lol.
Integration is a prime factor, and we’re very lucky today to have the tools to measure and adjust. We also have better speakers available than ever.

 

[JasonGSG]

A pair of our finished MC18 with LV SAF drivers getting ready for placement in their forever home

 

[highfigh]

Sorry but I don’t see how 8-10” subs will support a pair of Cornwalls in 5000cuft. Especially with this type of music. The main reason you can “feel” kick drums is a function of spl. So you really have to be playing fairly loud. As you’ve found out already, the SB1000 pro’s very quickly run out of steam. This will be true of most sealed subs in this application.
Imo, the sealed for music thing must go away. Modern subwoofers are designed to be accurate whether they are sealed or ported. The main difference is that sealed subs roll add around 35hz which may be fine for much music, but I agree with HD in that I prefer the output and extension of quality ported subs. Also the group delay “issue” of ported subs is far below the typical music range and really a non issue. I also believe a lot of modern kicks(or samples) are closer to 40hz as are my own kick drums. That’s a lot of energy that would be best served by larger ported subs. Imo. Also pro subs might be an option too, but they can be pretty unappealing lol.
Maybe @shadyJ can offer some more insight.
Ok. Back to bed…

The right woofers (quantity and quality) in sealed cabinet(s) do just fine down to 25Hz, in the right conditions, e.g., in a full-sized car, but when the driver of a car which had its stereo system installed by me pulled next to us, there was absolutely no problem getting all of the bass it was putting out. They just need to be in the correct box.

 

[highfigh]

A pair of our finished MC18 with LV SAF drivers getting ready for placement in their forever home

View attachment 58326

Uh, they're not dogs or cats- not much in audio is 'forever'.

Seriously, you have a Dennis The Menace Park?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The right woofers (quantity and quality) in sealed cabinet(s) do just fine down to 25Hz, in the right conditions, e.g., in a full-sized car, but when the driver of a car which had its stereo system installed by me pulled next to us, there was absolutely no problem getting all of the bass it was putting out. They just need to be in the correct box.

Yep. The car IS the box. Apples and watermelons…

 

[JasonGSG]

Uh, they're not dogs or cats- not much in audio is 'forever'.

Seriously, you have a Dennis The Menace Park?

Dogs & Cats also aren't forever. Our client must have whatever you're seeing.

 

[Trebdp83]

Only diamonds are forever, but many end up in the pawn shop to finance nice subs.

 

[highfigh]

Dogs & Cats also aren't forever. Our client must have whatever you're seeing.

Didn't see the smilie, eh?

What drivers are you putting in these cabinets? I have heard of the Marty subs for quite a while, but haven't talked to anyone who uses them. Any customers in the Milwaukee area?

 

[highfigh]

Yep. The car IS the box. Apples and watermelons…

Yes, it's the box, often with loose parts on the outside (license plates, moldings, body panels, etc) and the tuning can be changed by opening and closing the windows. But when a car sub is built, it's often tested outside of the vehicle, so it still applies to the 'sub in a room' debate.

 

[JasonGSG]

Didn't see the smilie, eh?

What drivers are you putting in these cabinets? I have heard of the Marty subs for quite a while, but haven't talked to anyone who uses them. Any customers in the Milwaukee area?

To best answer this I'd need a better idea of which size Marty you'd be interested in using.
Here's a link to our available drivers - https://shop.gsgad.com/collections/subwoofer-drivers
Mini Marty 18" - Marty Cube 18" & Full Marty 18"

Then we have the Marty 21" & BTS 18"/21"

 

[annunaki]

I have found over time that the kick drum each person is after can be slightly different. However what I have found to be critical is that the audio system can produce the important parts of the kick itself well and in balance. The initial mallet strike or attack of the kick is actually quite high in the frequency band depending upon how it was recorded. That can be through the mid-bass band well up to the 3k range depending upon the mallet used and the kit itself.

The fundamental of the kick will come from the tuning on the drum and the harmonics/resonance properties of each drum. That is where the sub itself will come in to help add the proper weight. The main speakers should be adequate to support the SPL levels you want to achieve. I would suggest that if you have a 45hz or 50hz fundamental in a kick drum you want a speaker capable of delivering strong performance 1 and 2 octaves above (harmonics) to match the SPL of the sub.

As one poster mentioned earlier the recording of the drum kit is important. However the system as a whole is critical in terms of the proper balance. The attack and perceived punch comes from the 1st & 2nd octaves above the fundamental (usually the mains) combined with a proper balance of the sub doing the lower end work.

When I EQ our kickdrum at our church you would be surprised how much upper frequency information is not only contained, but needed, in order to give it the punch it needs. I bump one of the eqs up a bit below the fundamental to add more "weight" and depth but there is a lot of fine tuning above that to make it sound great.