Bass Mgnt with speaker-level sub connection.

[Bevan]

I'm wondering if there are any subs that have high-passed speaker-level outputs.

My amp doesnt have pre-out so i'm going to have to use speaker-level connection to the sub. But I would like to have the option of running speakers as 'small'. Is there any way to do this?

Thanks for the input,


b.

 

[korgoth]

*edit

i havent seen any subs that have high passed speaker outputs like that, so im not sure...

but, in order to run small for all your speakers youre going to need a dedicated sub channel. Running small to your sub is going to cut all the low end out.

 

[Bevan]

Thanks jety.

I thought many subs has high-pass filters. But these seem to be take line-level/rca inputs and feed the high-passed signal back to the amp. not possible in my case. i'm hoping for high-passed speaker level outs from sub to speaker.

i can live witout bass management, for music certainly. would be nice for movies though as my tube amps are not really designed for reproducing seizmic explosions.

b.

 

[dponeill]

This was much more common before bass management became standard equipment in receivers. I have a Boston Acoustics SW-10 that I don't use anymore that has speaker level ins and outs with a fixed 100 hz crossover. If that sounds like something you might be interested in, PM me.

 

[Bevan]

good to know they do exist. 'fraid i'm on the otherside of the atlantic so unfortunately no chance to take the sub off your hands. thanks anyway.

cheers

b

 

[AVRat]

Yes, they do exist. Check Paradigm, B&W, KEF, and others on your side of the pond.

 

[MDS]

Pretty much every powered sub with high level inputs I have ever seen has a built-in adjustable xover. [The question about where to set the sub's xover when you are using the receiver's bass management is one of the most frequently asked questions on the forum. ]

If you use the high level inputs on the sub, you simply set the front channels to Large on the receiver and adjust the xover on the sub. You can set all the other channels to Small if you like - the bass will get redirected to the Large channel which will actually be your sub.

 

[timechaser]

Bevan - I assume you are on my side of the pond. I am based in the UK.

I have the REL Storm 5 sub (retails for around £995), which accepts speaker level inputs and is fully controllable from the sub side, without any (mis)management from the receiver's side. You also have the option of using LFE if you want to use the receiver to control the bass.

However - you CANNOT use small speakers with speaker level inputs as this will definitely result in faster demise of your speakers. Reason being - the speaker level inputs work only when you are feeding a full spectrum signal into your speakers (for which you need decent full range speakers, set to large) so that the sub's inbuilt electronics can weed out the low frequency information. If you have small speakers (typically with a 80hz - 20khz frequency response range), you are more likely than not going to kill them if you throw a full spectrum signal (lets say 20hz - 20Khz) at them.

Several other subs accept speaker level inputs as well. I would highly recommend visiting your local sevenoaks (www.ssav.com) for more information. Feel free to PM me if you need more info about my setup.

 

[jcPanny]

Receiver connections

Double check your receiver because most entry level receiver in the last couple years will not have pre-amp outputs for all channels but they will have one for the sub or LFE signal.
Also, many well designed bookshelf speakers will have no problem receiving a full range signal from the receiver. They obviously wont reporduce the low frequencies but they wont be damaged. Some porely designed satellites like Bose cubes, however, could be damaged by a full range signal due to their minimal power handeling capabilities and no crossover.

 

[Bevan]

thanks for the replies everyone.

just to clarify, i dont have a receiver, just a 2-channel integrated tube amplifier, which has no pre-outs. speakers go down to 40hz.

i'm wanting the option of using bass management. usually i would rather run the speakers full range, but if i were to have a party i would like to releive the 40w amp of having to do 50hz bass lines at 100db.

i has a look at the b&w pv1 manual now, and it seems that although it does take a speaker-level input, it has no speaker-level out. i.e speakers cant be downstream of the sub.

looks like the rels also dont have high-level outputs.

thanks for the help.

b

 

[jcPanny]

Sub w/ high level outputs

Most of the subs from SVS and HSU have high level inputs and outputs.

I am not sure how the high level inputs work, but it may be possible to connect the amplifiers outputs to the sub inputs and the speakers in parallel in which case the sub would run the low pass crossover and the speakers would get the full range signal.

 

[timechaser]

Bevan - you dont need to connect the speakers in series after the sub. The way speaker level connections work - and I have tried this on my REL sub - is that you plug in the wires to the speaker outputs from the amp. Since the impedance (I am not be accurate with this) at the sub level is really high on such a connection, the current drawn from the amp is minimal and doesnt disrupt the speakers in any way. The signal is then sorted by the sub's internal amp depending on the crossover, phase and myriad other settings and output from the sub after amplification.

what I mean basically is, instead of going

Amp --> Sub --> Speaker

You need to connect

Sub
Amp<
Speaker

If you download the manual for the Storm 5 sub, on page 3, there is an illustration which shows this.

The bass management in the sub is far more accurate than my Yammie - believe it or not.

As for a comparison between the PV1 and the REL Storm 5, IMHO, the storm 5 is much much better, far tighter and more "musical". Since your setup and requirement seems driven towards music, I would heartily recommend the Storm 5.

 

[phillyguy]

Bevan,

I have an older infinity sub that was paired with some Mission 707's. The sub had a high pass filter, with an adjustable crossover. Speaker level outputs went from the amp to the sub to the speakers. You could bypass the high pass filter if you wanted the speakers to get a full range signal. I think you will find that your speakers will sound cleaner and perhaps a bit brighter when they are hooked up with the high pass filter. They will not have to try to produce the lower frequencies that require a lot of cone excursion on the woofers.

I really liked how my bookshelfs sounded when using the high pass filter on the sub. I really liked the added punch to the midrange. Hope this helps.

 

[Bevan]

thats the one phillyguy!

but i'm hoping to do something like that with the few subs that are on my shortlist(rel strata 5/stampede, martin logan grotto, velodyne spl-r, b&w pv-1)

timechaser, i had a look at about 4 manuals from the rel website. but i'm not sure which one is applicable. one manaul does talk about speaker-level high-passed outs, another manual about line-level high-passed outs, and the new strata 5 manual makes no mention of either or has any schematics of the back pannel. so i'm left wondering in the new strata 5 or stapede have speaker taps for a filtered/bass-managed/highpassed speaker-level OUTGOING signal.

also, i'm a bit confused by what you mean by

Sub
Amp<
Speaker

are you suggesting cd payer--->sub--->integrated amp---> speakers ?

if the sub had high-passed line-level outs(which seems more common than my above idea of speaker-level outs), this hookup should be feasable no? i would then use the subs gain dial as my primary volume control. this would be a blessing if the sub had a remote because my amp doesnt have a remote controll.

appreciate the help

b.

 

[timechaser]

Bevan, this is what I was talking about - http://www.rel.net/manuals/STORM.pdf. Thats the manual for the STORM 5 sub. Look at page 4 for instructions on hooking it up.

The connection I was suggesting was

CD Player --> Amp --> Speakers/Sub

The Speakers and Sub take the signal simultaneously (in parallel) from the binding posts/connectors on your amp using the supplied high level lead (called the Neutrik Speakon connection by REL for some bizarre reason).

If you are sending a full range signal from the amp to the speakers, this will be picked up by the sub, and you can use the crossover settings in the sub to control rather than rely on the amp.

As I said earlier - pay a visit to your closest sevenoaks sound and vision shop (www.ssav.com). These guys are really helpful, and true hi-fi geeks. You will not find any cube speakers in this shop, only high-end stuff.

If you want further information about the REL Storm 5 (which I have, drop me a PM with your phone number and/or email and I will get in touch with you).

Edit: What you mention as a potential setup towards the end of your message is also (I think) possible with the Storm 5. It comes with a remote control and has a pretty good gain control.

Cheers matey (Too many ales...)

 

[Bevan]

o.k, i checked the manual.

problem is, this method involves the speakers getting a full range signal. my whole quest is to use some form of bass management. by this i mean routing anything bellow 80 away from my mains inorder to cut my tubes some slack.

the search continues....

cheers

b

 

[timechaser]

What you are after would require an Active Bass Management Circuit in the sub so that your connection would go

CD Player -> Sub -> Amp -> Speakers

Where the sub would output the "cleaned" signal to the amp. This would IMO carry the danger of making your speakers sound too bright, but...

I think the Storm 5 can handle this setup as well, though this is not the "standard" setup which is used so is not mentioned in the manual. Let me ask a friend who is a dealer and get back to you on this. I will also try to take a pic of the back of the Storm 5 and see if this kind of a system can be managed.

Cheers
T

 

[Bevan]

thanks timechaser.

if you get a chance to talk to your friend, could you ask him if the strata 5 and stampede back pannels differ from the storm 5?

cheers

b.

 

[Vynilforlife]

What you are after would require an Active Bass Management Circuit in the sub so that your connection would go

CD Player -> Sub -> Amp -> Speakers

Where the sub would output the "cleaned" signal to the amp. This would IMO carry the danger of making your speakers sound too bright, but...

I think the Storm 5 can handle this setup as well, though this is not the "standard" setup which is used so is not mentioned in the manual. Let me ask a friend who is a dealer and get back to you on this. I will also try to take a pic of the back of the Storm 5 and see if this kind of a system can be managed.

Cheers
T

No system will work like this unless you are using the volume control on the CD player only.

If you are using high leve inputs with the sub, you need to go through the sub and use its crossover to send the high stuff to the loudspeakers. If you set the sub to crossover at 80Hz, then 80 and down needs to go to the sub and 81 and up goes to the speakers (note: these are not actually true numbers due to crossover slopes), you dont want to send the speakers the full range. Depending on the sub and speakers you can have phase, level and timing issues.

 

[jcPanny]

Sub options.

What you are after would require an Active Bass Management Circuit in the sub so that your connection would go

CD Player -> Sub -> Amp -> Speakers

Where the sub would output the "cleaned" signal to the amp. This would IMO carry the danger of making your speakers sound too bright, but...

I think the Storm 5 can handle this setup as well, though this is not the "standard" setup which is used so is not mentioned in the manual. Let me ask a friend who is a dealer and get back to you on this. I will also try to take a pic of the back of the Storm 5 and see if this kind of a system can be managed.

Cheers
T

I am not aware of any subwoofers that will work in the configuration described above.

All he needs is a subwoofer with speaker level inputs AND outputs. Check the manual to verify that the speaker level outputs have a fixed or variable crossover to prevent the mains from getting the <80Hz info.
Most of the subwoofers from SVS and HSU offer speaker level inputs and outputs and they also offer great performance in your price range.