B&W, Revel, & RBH

[PENG]

I liked the Dali Euphonia MS5 a lot more than the B&Ws.

The midrange and treble were clear and smooth, and bass was pretty good, but not as good as the T2/T3 or BP7000/7001.

It is a good thing you don't seem to know when to give up, but eventually you may have to accept the/your fact that there really is nothing better than/like your DTs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is a good thing you don't seem to know when to give up, but eventually you may have to accept the/your fact that there really is nothing better than/like your DTs.

Well, if I had to pick from scratch between the T2 vs BP7000, I would pick the T2. The bass is totally awesome.

But I don't know if I'm willing to upgrade from the BP7000 to the T2 because I don't think the difference is significant enough for me.

In my ranking, I would say the T2 is a 10.0 and the BP7000 is a 9.5.

So within my price range ($20K), I'm looking for something substantially better than the BP7000, not just a little better.

But I think most of us find it fun to audition speakers in general.

I'm sure everyone will differ on how important they think deep, tight, powerful bass contributes to the overall sound quality.

To some, a plain "neutral" sound is of utmost importance.

That is why we don't own the same speakers.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Your ears are ruined by the DTs.

Delerium Tremens...?

 

[Warpdrv]

Well, if I had to pick from scratch between the T2 vs BP7000, I would pick the T2. The bass is totally awesome.

But I don't know if I'm willing to upgrade from the BP7000 to the T2 because I don't think the difference is significant enough for me.

In my ranking, I would say the T2 is a 10.0 and the BP7000 is a 9.5.

So within my price range ($20K), I'm looking for something substantially better than the BP7000, not just a little better.

But I think most of us find it fun to audition speakers in general.

I'm sure everyone will differ on how important they think deep, tight, powerful bass contributes to the overall sound quality.

To some, a plain "neutral" sound is of utmost importance.

That is why we don't own the same speakers.

This is exactly the reason why I built the subs I did in case you didn't see my build thread. Completely over the top amount of the cleanest bass possible if called upon, then add to it excellent sounding speakers, a system IMO that is downright hard to beat.

You should take a look at an application of this design IMO. I think you'd be much happier then trying to get the biggest bass speakers around.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is exactly the reason why I built the subs I did in case you didn't see my build thread. Completely over the top amount of the cleanest bass possible if called upon, then add to it excellent sounding speakers, a system IMO that is downright hard to beat.

You should take a look at an application of this design IMO. I think you'd be much happier then trying to get the biggest bass speakers around.

I think you might just have something there.

Life is about finding answers.

And that will require a lot of changes.

So perhaps a crystal clear midrange & treble + an all-powerful-crystal-clear dedicated sub is the answer?

I don't know. Perhaps the B&W 800D/802D may have sounded super awesome if they were mated with an awesome sub?

For some reason, that never crossed my mind.

I wonder why the dealer didn't even have a sub in the room?

 

[billy p]

Maybe the answer was in front of you all along....

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=745645&postcount=31

Btw I love the live version of that song with the trumpet solo...it's so....

 

[gene]

Well, if I had to pick from scratch between the T2 vs BP7000, I would pick the T2. The bass is totally awesome.

But I don't know if I'm willing to upgrade from the BP7000 to the T2 because I don't think the difference is significant enough for me.

In my ranking, I would say the T2 is a 10.0 and the BP7000 is a 9.5.

So within my price range ($20K), I'm looking for something substantially better than the BP7000, not just a little better.

But I think most of us find it fun to audition speakers in general.

I'm sure everyone will differ on how important they think deep, tight, powerful bass contributes to the overall sound quality.

To some, a plain "neutral" sound is of utmost importance.

That is why we don't own the same speakers.

You really need to be comparing speakers in the same room, and level matched to make such an assessment. I have listened to the entire Def Tech line up and even used to service them back when I was in college working at a hifi shop. I can tell you that the differences between Def Tech and RBH T system is night and day and not just in bass. I am not dissing the Def tech speakers but its just not an apples to apples comparison. For example, I love my Acura TL Type S. Its a great little sports sedan. But it is in no way at the level of a Mercedes C63 AMG and I acknowledge that.

Also if the dealer switched off 2 of the subs from the T3 system and you didn't notice a difference, then something was really wrong. Bass output should have dropped at least 3dB once 2 of those subs were turned off, requiring the dealer to recalibrate the T2 system to match previous levels of the T3 system. The benefit of the 2 extra subs is more output capabilities and better smoother bass response across the listening area. I set up a T2 system for my Uncle in a 50ft basement. The bass was good but not impactive enough. When I upgraded him to a T3 system it was a significant step up. Now his walls breath during intense bass content

 

[Docks]

The RBH T series really seems to shine because of its separate LF enclosures!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The RBH T series really seems to shine because of its separate LF enclosures!

I'm not so sure.

Although I see your point & reasoning.

For example, it was very hard for me to hear the bass guiatar playing in the background in the live-version (Hell Freezes Over CD) of "Hotel California" on the RBH T2/T3 with that thunderous bass.

I recently auditioned the Revel Performa M22 monitor/bookshelf speakers. I could hear that bass guitar, but not any clearer than on my BP7000SC.

And nothing comes close (including BP7000) to what I heard on my old NHT SuperZero/SW2P system - I mean as far as that bass guitar playing in the background while the drums were pounding away & the walls were shaking.

It's not the most important thing - that background resolution perception of that bass guitar - but it just bothered me a little.

 

[Docks]

It seems you had an issues with bass during your audition if you couldnt hear the difference between the T2 and T3, especially if he was making changes during your audition.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the probablity of anyone listening to all these speakers in the same room with perfectly matched volume levels is slim to none.

Most of the time, it's about comparison by memory.

And most of the time it just comes down to what sounds "great" to our own ears and wallets.

I thought the RBH sounded more "forward" and the BP7000 (& B&Ws & Revel) sounded "warmer", but that's pure subjective memory comparison.

It is a good and fun experience to listen to as many speakers as possible.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It seems you had an issues with bass during your audition if you couldnt hear the difference between the T2 and T3, especially if he was making changes during your audition.

But heres the thing.

Why would the dealer want to prove to me that a T2 (~ $8K) sounds just like a T3 (~$15K)?

But if the T2 were producing that much bass already, would increasing more bass make that much difference?

If you are listening to 95dB 20Hz bass already, would you want to listen to 98dB 20Hz bass? Or would you be able to tell the difference?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Your ears are ruined by the DTs.

Delerium Tremens...?

Come on! That's golden! Nobody's gonna bite!?

Where's Alex? He can't possibly be working still!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Come on! That's golden! Nobody's gonna bite!?

Where's Alex? He can't possibly be working still!

I actually got the DAWG on that about a year ago.

He said "DT" speakers.

I said "Delirium Tremors"?

He said "Ha, ha."

Or something like that.

 

[gene]

I think the probablity of anyone listening to all these speakers in the same room with perfectly matched volume levels is slim to none.

Most of the time, it's about comparison by memory.

And most of the time it just comes down to what sounds "great" to our own ears and wallets.

I thought the RBH sounded more "forward" and the BP7000 (& B&Ws & Revel) sounded "warmer", but that's pure subjective memory comparison.

It is a good and fun experience to listen to as many speakers as possible.
__________________

Its fun but not accurate. The human ear is a terrible absolute reference but a great comparitor. Your reference is shot after only a few seconds so going off memory is anecdotal at best.

I once found a pair of bookshelf speakers at a dealer that I thought sounded wonderful, best I ever heard...Until I asked them if I could bring them home and compare them. Once I compared them to my reference bookshelf speakers, level matched, there didn't hold a candle to them. As you can see my memory and being in a different listening environment, listening to unfamiliar source material threw me. Points to consider...

If you are truly serious about finding a better speaker, than drag your reference speakers to the demos or request a loaner pair to take home.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I actually got the DAWG on that about a year ago.

He said "DT" speakers.

I said "Delirium Tremors"?

He said "Ha, ha."

Or something like that.

OK, you stole my thunder and I want it back!

 

[GO-NAD!]

Its fun but not accurate. The human ear is a terrible absolute reference but a great comparitor. Your reference is shot after only a few seconds so going off memory is anecdotal at best.

I once found a pair of bookshelf speakers at a dealer that I thought sounded wonderful, best I ever heard...Until I asked them if I could bring them home and compare them. Once I compared them to my reference bookshelf speakers, level matched, there didn't hold a candle to them. As you can see my memory and being in a different listening environment, listening to unfamiliar source material threw me. Points to consider...

If you are truly serious about finding a better speaker, than drag your reference speakers to the demos or request a loaner pair to take home.

I don't want to send this thread off into the rhubarb patch, but can you tell me how you would level match those speakers? Since the FR's won't be identical, how do you choose your reference frequency when matching them? Do you just pick a frequency somewhere in the mid-range, match the SPLs for both pairs, then carry on with the comparison?

 

[gene]

I don't want to send this thread off into the rhubarb patch, but can you tell me how you would level match those speakers? Since the FR's won't be identical, how do you choose your reference frequency when matching them? Do you just pick a frequency somewhere in the mid-range, match the SPLs for both pairs, then carry on with the comparison?

That is a great question and its harder to level match than most people realize.

I discuss how I level match in the last Speaker FaceOff we did:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/2010-1k-faceoff

I use wideband pinknoise and C-wt on the SPL meter. Internal Pink noise generators in A/V receivers are usually narrowband which will put the speaker that is bass deficient at a disadvantage. NEVER pick a single test frequency to level match speakers!!!

 

[gene]

If you are listening to 95dB 20Hz bass already, would you want to listen to 98dB 20Hz bass? Or would you be able to tell the difference?

No and stop making statements like this or you will make me write a 7k word tech article explaining exactly how this works. I don't have time for this

The additional subs add the ability to play louder while also smoothing out bass response. To do a fair comparison, you must level match with and without the additional subs. Seems like the dealer you went to needs some Audioholics 101 refresher courses.

 

[GO-NAD!]

That is a great question and its harder to level match than most people realize.

I discuss how I level match in the last Speaker FaceOff we did:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/2010-1k-faceoff

I use wideband pinknoise and C-wt on the SPL meter. Internal Pink noise generators in A/V receivers are usually narrowband which will put the speaker that is bass deficient at a disadvantage. NEVER pick a single test frequency to level match speakers!!!

Ahhhh, right! I read that whole article and promptly forgot that part. I guess you're matching the sum (for lack of a better term) of the speakers' FR's - correct?

A couple of years ago, my wife and I were trying to do a blind comparison of two different pairs of speakers. We took turns listening while the other switched speakers and controlled the volume. In an effort to negate the "louder is better" effect, we varied the volume by several dB each time we listened to a pair. While blindfolded, we would never know which pair we were listening to - regardless of the volume. So, we had to try to "listen through" the volume, while making our judgements. We did this many times while switching back and forth, in order to get some degree of validity. It wasn't easy and I'm not sure how effective it was.

I prefer your method....