Audio Art SC-5 Loudspeaker Cables

Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Although I have bought a few cable assemblies from time to time for the most part I use my own DIY variants.

Taking advantage of some Black Friday sales events, I bought some loudspeaker cables from a supplier with a good reputation as a kind of "sanity check" to use as part of a good workflow when building cable assemblies.

Audio Art CC5 which are the Centre Channel variant (sold each vs per pair) of their SC5 Spade/Spade loudspeaker cable. The reason I bought 2 Centre Channel cables is they are available @ 5' lengths versus 6' for the SC5 2-channel version, and I didn't want to have to wait for a custom build option. My cost was $US 129 to my door, which is comparable, although higher, than my cost to DIY a set of speaker cables using the method I currently adhere to.

MSRP would be $US 165, plus shipping (International) plus brokerage fee, plus 5% Federal and 5% Provincial sales tax. My estimate would be Shipping $10 (Free US-48 shipping, so I would have it shipped to my broker in North Dakota, and they carry it across the border and re-ship it to me for $10 via courier -- insured, 1-day), so $US 192.50 total. So I saved $US 63.50.

Overall construction is very good; little things like the shrink tube length and diameter is exactly the same on the 4 ends of the cable that end at the spade, for example. The dark blue colour is attractive in a "don't call attention to itself" way, and I appreciate that Audio Art resisted the urge to doll it up with fancy "look at me" TechFlex.

Construction is Silver coated OFC copper strands, Foamed Polyethylene Dielectric, filler material to reduce handling noise, PVC jacket. No information about cable geometry, but broadly speaking not too far from what I typically build (silver coated OFC copper strands, Teflon Dielectric, Braided 18 Ga x4 (15 Ga overall per leg for my 40 wpc amp), Teflon tubing).

Did some measurements on the SC5's:
5 Foot Overall Length
+ to + Inductance
100 Hz 1uH
120 Hz 1uH
1 KHz 1.4uH
10 KHz 1.4uH
100 KHz 1.382uH

+ to (-), continuous (10' overall length) (connected at opposite + and (-) end)
100 Hz **
120 Hz **
1 KHz 1.2 uH
10 KHz 1.21 uH
100 KHz 1.191 uH

Resistance (ohms, 5' + to +):
100 Hz 0.01
120Hz 0.01
1 KHz 0.01
10 KHz 0.01
100 KHz 0.04

Capacitance (+ to +):
100; 120; 1KHz **
10 KHz 186.6 uF
100 KHz 1896.8 uF

+ to (-), non-continuous (not connected at opposite + and (-) end)
100 Hz 57 pF
120 Hz 57 pF
1 KHz 57.2 pF
10 KHz 56.59 pF
100 KHz 55.61 pF

Aside from the rise in capacitance that begins somewhere above 1 Khz and rises to 10x that 10 KHz value at 100 KHz, the cable measures well. The low inductance is especially welcome in a loudspeaker cable.

I need to set up a few tools to do any further testing, but I would be interested in seeing how the square and triangle waves look like at, say, 5 KHz and up.

Overall, on the test bench, it looks like a competent effort from Audio Art. The Reviewer Press seems to like the cable as well.

There are a lot of Audioholics who would find spending a bit over $100 on a pair of Loudspeaker cables to be excessive, but to DIY a set the way I do these days costs about half that, so considering there is someone's labour involved and a need for commercial profit to keep the lights lit, it seems reasonable to me. I wouldn't sell you a cable as I make them now for much less, actually.

I've been building cable assemblies for almost 40 years; in that time I've wired everything from Night Clubs to Home Recording Studios to Ice Rinks and countless home Audio and A/V systems. Maybe I don't know everything there is to know about interconnection, but I do know some things, and I still have an open mind to just about everything to do with audio, so if you have something to teach me, please do; I actually am "all ears" ;-)

** No measured value indicated. Using a DER EE 5000 LCR meter. I don't have proper Kelvin clips for it yet (on the way) but I will only re-post if using them changes something.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for the write up! Your history of cabling sounds impressive!

So I've got to ask what you would do to even a 12 ga speaker wire (50' @ $15 Monoprice) that would render only 10 feet of it to cost you $50?
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Thanks for the write up! Your history of cabling sounds impressive!

So I've got to ask what you would do to even a 12 ga speaker wire (50' @ $15 Monoprice) that would render only 10 feet of it to cost you $50?
I don't use 12Ga PVC coated wire for various reasons; obviously you are happy to do so, therefore I must ask why are you asking me what I use when you have your choice and the price you are willing to pay already established?

Secondly, I indicated what raw cable and the geometry I use for loudspeaker applications in the review; I suggest you re-read it if you are truly interested in the answer to your question.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't use 12Ga PVC coated wire for various reasons;
Besides being snarky for AH forum regulars, I am honestly curious to what are the "various reasons" you are not using regular 12Awg wires?

p.s:
Imho a quick glance over your setup in sig, tells me that you might want to consider upgrade in speakers, sub as next step and not buying new speaker cable. I mean C-2 are nice enough speakers, but there are better ones. Trying to drastically EQ the sound tone using electronics/cables is bad idea.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Do you prefer PVC dielectric to the alternatives?
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I don't use 12Ga PVC coated wire for various reasons; obviously you are happy to do so, therefore I must ask why are you asking me what I use when you have your choice and the price you are willing to pay already established?

Secondly, I indicated what raw cable and the geometry I use for loudspeaker applications in the review; I suggest you re-read it if you are truly interested in the answer to your question.
From your previous post:

Construction is Silver coated OFC copper strands, Foamed Polyethylene Dielectric, filler material to reduce handling noise, PVC jacket. No information about cable geometry, but broadly speaking not too far from what I typically build (silver coated OFC copper strands, Teflon Dielectric, Braided 18 Ga x4 (15 Ga overall per leg for my 40 wpc amp), Teflon tubing).
Just asking, cause with your background, you must have a good reason for wanting to spend that kind of money.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
My "good reason" is to see what happens. Some people are willing to throw a little cash at something they are curious about, and others are satisfied to read reviews on the internet and leave it at that. I'm one of the former.

I am going to state, right from the start, that I'm too old and have been in this hobby as both an amateur and as someone earning a living from audio in one way or another to engage in argument, debates, or defence of one thing or another. What you see is what you get. Take it or leave it; I do not care whether you agree or disagree, and although I most certainly welcome your alternate take, I'm not interested in challenging anyone or defending what I believe.

I do what I do because I want to do it, nothing more and nothing less, and if I feel like it, I report my conclusions, my still unanswered questions, and where I think it should go from there. This particular site is far from the ideal forum for the curious, because it's populated by a faction of people who *know everything* and waste no time in challenging anyone who dares think differently from the foregone conclusion.

Also I want to make it clear that when I said earlier that I would not sell a speaker cable constructed like the one I've been using for about 8 years or so "for much less", I am not implying that I'm in the business of selling cables.

I have not sold anyone a loudspeaker cable like the one I use at home, and have no intention of offering cable for sale. Occasionally someone hires me to perform some audio-related task, and in that regard I could end up building a cable assembly for one application or another. Hasn't happened yet, but you never know; if it came up I would do it.

I am not going to belabour this, since the topic is a review, underway, of a commercial loudspeaker cable. I have no idea how it has morphed into some kind of inquisition into the DIY cable it's replacing for the review period, but I am not going to spend much effort continuing this thread along that line.

The Hippocratic Oath says (to Medical Doctors) " ... first, do no harm. ..."

So, as a fundamental goal, when you build an interconnection cable, whatever you do, it should not detract from what would be possible with *no interconnect*.

Looking at a loudspeaker cable as an entity to itself is, in my opinion, a mistake. Power Amplifiers vary more than virtually any audio component in design and construction, and the cable between amp and crossover is part of a system. Resistance is not a huge issue in most home system speaker length applications, but capacitance and inductance can and do affect amplifier performance and, in more instances than many realize, power amplifier stability.

There is the old "Julian Hirsch" doctrine that "all amplifiers sound the same" (with a few caveats, such as reasonable design and construction, etc). It's clear to me that they don't all sound the same ... right there we have a few people dropping out of the set of those who would consider me a reasonable man.

For those of you that are left, it's my belief that amplifiers most obviously reveal their sonic signature when asked to operate near the edge of their performance envelope. As an example, amplifiers have distinct sonic attributes when operating at the onset of clipping, and if you drive your speakers at high levels, you are going to hear the differences between two amplifiers of different topology.

So, at a minimum, we must establish that those values (capacitance, inductance, resistance) form part of the attributes of our ideal loudspeaker cable. Because there is so much variation in power amp topology, we can't simply assume that if our loudspeaker cable works in one, or some, applications, that our work is done.

I have concluded that with loudspeaker interfaces between amplifier output and loudspeaker crossover input, the most important criteria is low, ideally zero (not possible, but a goal none the less), inductance. Capacitance is less important, therefore you would compromise (and there is always compromise) somewhat higher capacitance for low inductance.

You want minimal inductance because inductance most definitely has an effect on power amplifier performance, to the point where in some cases it results in amplifier instability. Inductance is affected by two factors ... the inherent properties of the cable itself, and the geometry of the cable construction.

Silver-coated copper is used for the exact same reasons it carries a Military Specification for Aircraft and Aerospace applications (and many other military or medical applications) ... it protects against copper corrosion, which with copper oxides significantly affects it's electrical performance. Combined with the skin effect, well, it's better if you don't have to deal with corrosion. So I choose not to deal with it by specifying silver-coated copper wire.

Silver oxides are relatively good conductors, so corrosion of the silver outer coating is not a detriment to electrical performance.

Part of the typical MilSpec for that application is PTFE dielectric (DuPont Teflon© or equivalent). PTFE is the closest to ideal dielectric (air) for solid material, we can call that "good enough". (There are higher-performing dielectrics, whereby air is incorporated to create a foamed, rather than solid, dielectric).

The typical dielectric for the least expensive loudspeaker cables, based on Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) can carry chemicals that off-gas a corrosive, so that the bare copper wire can corrode at any point along it's length, not simply at the open ends, and happens fairly predictably over time.

You might consider some speaker cable as a consumable, needing replacement over X number of years. I often find evidence of copper corrosion in some speaker cable at 10 years of age.

Buying MilSpec cable in diameters greater than 18Ga is rare and expensive, simply because there is not much call for 12Ga cabling in your average Satellite or 767 (Boeing is often the source of the surplus MilSpec cable I buy).

So we can purchase it new from the usual suppliers (expensive) or we can use multiple runs to increase the effective gauge. 4 runs of 18Ga, which is readily available at low cost, gives us aggregate 12Ga (2x = 15Ga).

The necessity of multiple runs means we must choose a geometry. Parallel, what distance the (+) and (-) runs are from each other, spiral, braided, are some of the choices available to us. Each will result in different measured capacitance and inductance, so the choices are not simply cosmetic or irrelevant, but none the less you have to choose one.

So, the above represents some of the thinking that went into the loudspeaker cable I have been using and the choices I've made to resolve some of the many questions I feel are valid for the application. Obviously not everyone agrees but that does not trouble me the least.

Some have answered the question for themselves and really don't need to re-evaluate their choices, and that's fine. As for myself, I am much more comfortable with examining the potential issues and solutions, to simply "find out for myself" if conventional wisdom is valid or not. I don't expect others to feel the same way, and don't care if anyone agrees, disagrees, or has a sudden, unusual interest in my financial health.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Although it's common to hear or read that no one has done any comprehensive tests of loudspeaker cable, the truth is there are such explorations, and it's useful for anyone interested to check them out. (I am pretty confident everyone posting here is also aware of Gene's articles on the subject as well).

Now, I've done some homework but don't have everything just sitting here in front of me, and I'm not interested in doing someone's work for them, but the studies do exist and some are available online. I know that there are multiple articles in the magazine AudioXpress but I don't have a list of volumes or editions for you.

Rest assured, there is data out there, and not the kind of data with a hidden agenda supported or planted by some boutique cable manufacturer (although there is certainly no shortage of that form), if anyone is interested in following up for their own curiosity.

Unfortunately the best information, like most things audio, is found through membership in the Audio Engineering Society (AES), which restricts access to members or charges significant fees for reproduction rights so the papers submitted can be read.

The fee for one paper exceeds the cost of an experimental build of a loudspeaker cable; choose your poison. The good news is if you have access to a research library, such as most University Libraries, you can often access AES papers at no charge, but might be limited to on-site reading.

Well, that is plenty of food for thought, for those interested in the subject. There are a few more areas I could touch on, but I don't think it necessary; I only wish to show that there is method to my madness.

Basically it's meant to reassure the reader that the choices I've made in my experiments with cable construction are not made "just because", or derived from some commercial boutique manufacturer's formula, or based on the extraction of magical elixirs from unlucky snakes. I measure the exact cable I use in my system, and I listen for effects, and see if I can correlate the sonic attributes with a measured parameter.

Subjective Listening has a low reputation here on Audioholics, but I find it useful ... let's not let go of the actual purpose of *any* audio component, which is to perform as an audio component, not a medical device or as laboratory test equipment.

There have been many times over the years when I used audio equipment that was marginal, sonically, at best, and there have been times when I was blessed with some very nice gear in a very nice system. I have spent considerable time listening freely to systems that I could not afford, some that sounded good, some not so good. Money is clearly not a solution nor a limit to good sound quality; it is merely one of many factors that must be managed.

I say this because I've owned and used plenty of sound systems where the cable choices bordered on the irrelevant. In order to experience certain subtle sonic attributes or effects, you need a minimum capacity to resolve low-level parameters. My current system is of sufficient resolving quality that I can hear some pretty subtle changes. It is for this reason that I am re-visiting my loudspeaker cable.

I would like to remind readers of this thread that I've just begun the journey and have not come to any conclusions at this point; I certainly have not ruled out the possibility that there is no significant difference between what I have been using and what I'm evaluating. It should be obvious the opposite is also a possibility.

If listening is not part of audio equipment evaluation, well, I don't know how you can justify that position. No-one complains when a car reviewer drives the car; despite the fact that plenty of specifications, which are occasionally put to test, are available.

I would like to respectfully ask that we return to the Origional Topic, which is my review of a commercial loudspeaker cable, and to allow that to run it's natural course.

In order for that to happen I would much prefer that, if someone is interested to (yet again) discuss loudspeaker cable purchase considerations and performance issues, they open a thread in the appropriate forum heading. I don't intend to reply to any more posts in this particular thread regarding that topic.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
My "good reason" is to see what happens. Some people are willing to throw a little cash at something they are curious about, and others are satisfied to read reviews on the internet and leave it at that. I'm one of the former.
Cool!

I meant absolutely no offense, first and foremost!

Speaking personally, I am an enthusiast who has accepted he will never be able to afford the speakers his tastes have now grown to prefer. So DIY becomes a necessity. Here you come talking about a long history of cable building. So naturally you pique my interest! But in trying to keep it scientific, I asked for proof. Thats all!
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
You seem to have a typo in the measurement section:

Capacitance (+ to +):
100; 120; 1KHz **
10 KHz 186.6 uF
100 KHz 1896.8 uF

That's a big capacitor!
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Silver-coated copper is used for the exact same reasons it carries a Military Specification for Aircraft and Aerospace applications (and many other military or medical applications) ... it protects against copper corrosion, which with copper oxides significantly affects it's electrical performance. Combined with the skin effect, well, it's better if you don't have to deal with corrosion. So I choose not to deal with it by specifying silver-coated copper wire.

Silver oxides are relatively good conductors, so corrosion of the silver outer coating is not a detriment to electrical performance.
Silver coating is one thing, but then you went and brought up that old fallacy of skin effect. Skin effect is audibly irrelevant at audio frequencies, even 20 KHz.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Silver coating is one thing, but then you went and brought up that old fallacy of skin effect. Skin effect is audibly irrelevant at audio frequencies, even 20 KHz.
Skin effect is not "an old fallacy"; it's a well established characteristic. Perhaps you meant to say you feel it's irrelevant in this application since it is not an effect typical of a frequency of 20,000 Hz or less, and are suggesting that when I wrote:

" ... So I choose not to deal with it by specifying silver-coated copper wire. ..."

It's a bit of a leap to equate "I chose not to deal with it" to " in order to deal with it".
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Skin effect is not "an old fallacy"; it's a well established characteristic. Perhaps you meant to say you feel it's irrelevant in this application since it is not an effect typical of a frequency of 20,000 Hz or less, and are suggesting that when I wrote:

" ... So I choose not to deal with it by specifying silver-coated copper wire. ..."

It's a bit of a leap to equate "I chose not to deal with it" to " in order to deal with it".
What I think Irv is trying to say is Skin Effect are irrelevant for ANY cable type used in audio application and fallacy is in many audioholics believing it is possibly relevant for them, something fancy cable manufactures strongly encourage.
Just because you can measure it, it doesn't necessary means it has any audible effect, like difference between THD measured -110db or -108db.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Skin effect is not "an old fallacy"; it's a well established characteristic. Perhaps you meant to say you feel it's irrelevant in this application since it is not an effect typical of a frequency of 20,000 Hz or less, and are suggesting that when I wrote:

" ... So I choose not to deal with it by specifying silver-coated copper wire. ..."

It's a bit of a leap to equate "I chose not to deal with it" to " in order to deal with it".
It is a fallacy that skin is relevant for analog signalling in the audio frequency range. The loss at 20KHz for speaker cables is *well* within the range of inaudibility, and certainly tiny compared to the variability in frequency responses for two identical tweeters.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
What I think Irv is trying to say is Skin Effect are irrelevant for ANY cable type used in audio application and fallacy is in many audioholics believing it is possibly relevant for them, something fancy cable manufactures strongly encourage.
Just because you can measure it, it doesn't necessary means it has any audible effect, like difference between THD measured -110db or -108db.
Skin effect isn't irrelevant for digital cables and networking cables, even HDMI cables, but for anything carrying analog audio signals it really is irrelevant.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
@Johnny2Bad- you wrote "Although it's common to hear or read that no one has done any comprehensive tests of loudspeaker cable..." but that's very far from the truth. As long as test equipment has been in existence and cabling has been used for carrying some kind of electrical signal, cables have been tested for their physical and electrical characteristics by scientists and engineers. Even as far back as the telegraph, they needed to find out if a cable would work over the distances they needed to cover, if it would be affected by external sources like lightning, if amplitude would be affected by changes in frequency, static buildup, etc. Until someone got the idea that they could make a ton of money by selling something that NOBODY thought they needed before that time, it wasn't a big deal- we used calculations or charts to see if a particular gauge would be adequate for the load, power output and distance. Even recording studios did this and if you think anyone here has better equipment than studios owned by the BBC, Thorn/EMI and other top-notch studios, guess again.

You can test cables all you want but if you're not comparing the input signal with what comes out of the speakers, it's really not much of a useful test. If you WANT to see a specific change, you'll need to ask yourself- "Does this happen with ALL of the music, or only specific pieces?" and "Is this removing anything that I should be hearing?".

You can tilt at windmills all you want, but unless you can be certain of the cable being used without seeing it, mental bias exists and if affecting EVERYTHING you hear when you use your system.

Have you ever tried thinking "This is gonna sound great!" before using cables of unknown origin or construction? I doubt it.
 
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