Ascend Acoustics Seirra-1

[Joe Schmoe]

You can do simple mods and improve the sound. Or you can do extensive mods and end up with a near absolute transparent monopolar mid/treble module.

When I get new speakers, the absolute last thing I want to do is rip them open and start messing with their insides. I figure the company that makes them is way more qualified than I am to decide how they should be made!

 

[WmAx]

When I get new speakers, the absolute last thing I want to do is rip them open and start messing with their insides. I figure the company that makes them is way more qualified than I am to decide how they should be made!

Unfortunately, economics had a larger part in determining how the cabinet is made than the engineer did. And, some times , engineers with ignorance of the relevant perceptual sciences may play a part. But, it is certain that the extensive mod I suggested would require a huge increase in the product cost in order to used in production scale. The easier mod would still raise production costs significantly. These modifications I recommend are used in different forms, in some high-end speaker systems where the budget allows for a better cabinet system. These modifications will improve cabinet resonance, relative to the order or complexity herein.

Joe, you know I would like to get a hold of your omnis and rip the cabs open, right?

-Chris

 

[furrycute]

As always, thanks Chris! Your knowledge about all things audio always amazes me.

I think I will stick with the "simple" mods for now.

You can do simple mods and improve the sound. Or you can do extensive mods and end up with a near absolute transparent monopolar mid/treble module.

The simple mod wold be to remove the driver, remove the acoustic dampening material, and then apply 1/4"-1/3" in Dynamat or similar material to all walls. Just layer it up until you get to this thickness range. Now, install a highly effective acoustic dampening material such as high density rockwool board or fiberglass board(OC705), 2" thick on all walls, with 4" placed on the back wall directly behind the driver. You will have some mild loss of lower bass response, and an improved mid-range with higher clarity.

The extensive mod is to use a router and cut off the back of the cabinet and use install a highly braced constrained layer wall system. I can go into specific detail if you are interested -- but if you decided to do this exactly to my specification -- you could have a reference quality mid/treble module. If you did the extensive mod, then paired these up with high quality stereo subwoofers and a DCX2496 loudspeaker management DSP, you would have a monopolar monitor that would be performing objectively in many ways comparable to some of the better speakers in the +$10,000 USD range.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

As always, thanks Chris! Your knowledge about all things audio always amazes me.

I think I will stick with the "simple" mods for now.

Okay. If you are in the US, you can find an inexpensive substitute for the Dynamat called Peel N' Seal in Lowe's. It will be near the roofing patch materials. It is sold as a flashing repair. For the first layer of application in the cabinet, wipe the internal walls down with denatured alcohol. Heat the adhesive side on the first layer of material before application using a heat gun or hair dryer. You may find it easier to pre-cut all of the layers needed for each wall into the correct shape before hand, layer them up before install and apply the final adhesive layer to the wall as the last step. BTW, layers do not require heating when sticking to their own facing(aluminum), only when adhered to a material such as wood/MDF in this case. Make sure everything is at room temperature before beginning.

For the special acoustic dampening material, if you find it difficult to buy in your area, I can send you just enough for the project for raw cost plus shipping - which would end up around $10-$12 total, I expect. PM me if you need the material.

-Chris

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Joe, you know I would like to get a hold of your omnis and rip the cabs open, right?

I would like to sell those Omnis, but packing/shipping is a big concern. If you would like the drivers and crossovers only, PM me with an offer.

 

[furrycute]

Thanks Chris for all your help. I am in NY, there is a Home Depot and a Lowes just 30 minutes from where I live. What kind of acoustic dampening material do you think I can use? Is it some kind of fiberglass wool? Can that be purchased at Home Depot or Lowes?

For the special acoustic dampening material, if you find it difficult to buy in your area, I can send you just enough for the project for raw cost plus shipping - which would end up around $10-$12 total, I expect. PM me if you need the material.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Thanks Chris for all your help. I am in NY, there is a Home Depot and a Lowes just 30 minutes from where I live. What kind of acoustic dampening material do you think I can use? Is it some kind of fiberglass wool? Can that be purchased at Home Depot or Lowes?

The material I suggest is indeed fiberglass or rock wool. However, the material I suggest is manufactured in a much higher density as compared to the stuff you would purchase in a home improvement store. You find these materials at commercial/industrial insulation contractors. That is why I offered to send the material to you for only raw cost. In addition, if you buy the material from a contractor source, you usually have to buy it in a full pack - which in this case would be 6 units of 2" thick, 24" wide and 48" high. On the positive side, you can use the left over material to do some DIY acoustic treatments, which will always be a plus.

-Chris

 

[furrycute]

Thanks Chris for offering to send me the acoustic dampening material. I will PM you when I get around to ordering a pair of the CBM-170's and ready to do the mods.

So the whole point of the mods is to make the cabinet non-resonant. Just out of curiosity, would gluing some 1" thick DMF boards to the outside of the cabinet achieve the same thing?

 

[billy p]

Let me babble for a moment.

The Ascend Acoustics company is really very interesting. I have researched available credible 3rd party measurement databases extensively, and no one else that I can find offers the specific combination of neutral on/off axis response and linearity and sensitivity, as compared to the Ascend CBM-170 and Seirra 1. Though, it is interesting that the higher priced model has inferior driver/crossover set in measure, but still excellent, and in the end probably perceptually better due to the superior cabinet construction material(s) used. In any case, what other 2 way speaker brand/model is verified to be of the same over-all quality as the Ascend units at subject here for near the same price range?

You mention the AV123 speakers. I have never seen credible evidence that these have anything special in regards to performance. The one AV123 unit(Strata Mini) that NRC measured(in the SoundStage measurement database) did not even come close to matching the measured performance that the AV123 website showed. The actual NRC measurement results were considerably poorer than the factory provided measurements. So, I certainly can not begin to trust (the very limited) measurements provided by AV123.

-Chris

Having auditioned Energy speakers and very familiar with their sound I noticed that the Ascend cmb 170 was compared to the Energy C3 and both where characterized as excellent value. Out of curiousity I checked out the more recent Soundstage reviews on the Ascend Sierras and those of the Energy RC10's and and to me the RC10's measured as well as the Sierras?
Here are the two links: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/energy_rc_10/
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/

So considering 3rd party measurments are considered more reliable am I crazy to beleive the RC10's will be anything close the the Sierras? I am asking because I never heard the Ascends but I do like neutral speakers and IMO the Energy RC's are just that. So would the Ascends be worth the risk or should I stick with a speaker I have already auditioned?

Thanks, Billy P

 

[furrycute]

If you like Energy, audioadvisor right now has a sale on the Energy RC-10 and RC-30.


Chris, with regard to active in room correction. I was reading about the NHT XD system. The brain behind that system is a DSP processor that does active in room correction, active crossover, as well as doing some DSP processing that compensates for imperfections inherent in the speaker.

I think I read somewhere that NHT incorporated a downsized version of DEQX's HDP-3 into their XD system.

http://www.deqx.com/

But with the value of the U.S. dollar plummeting world wide, the cost of a standalone HDP-3 is now almost $6000. The older version (before all the dollar free fall), PDC-2.6 listed for around $2,600.


Any thoughts on this HDP-3 or the older version PDC-2.6 Chris?

 

[MUDSHARK]

Interesting since the dollar has decreased against the Euro about 35 percent.

 

[furrycute]

The U.S. dollar achieved parity with the Canadian dollar for the very first time in like forever about 6 months ago. There was even a period of time just very recently when one U.S. dollar was worth about 0.99 Canadian dollar.

Unbelievable. Back when I was still in school, I remember the exchange rate was something like 1 U.S. dollar equals 1.5 Canadian dollar. I would often get Canadian quarters as change when I buy stuff from the campus (there are a lot of Canadian students at my old school). I would only realize that they are Canadian quarters when I tried to use them for doing laundry. The machine wont take those Canadian quarters. I ended up throwing a lot of them away. Now that I think about, I should have kept those Canadian quarters, because now they are worth more than their U.S. counterpart. I could have been a rich man had I kept those coins...

 

[mazersteven]

I am in NY

Have to look you up next time I'm in New York. Upstate or City?

 

[avaserfi]

Having auditioned Energy speakers and very familiar with their sound I noticed that the Ascend cmb 170 was compared to the Energy C3 and both where characterized as excellent value. Out of curiousity I checked out the more recent Soundstage reviews on the Ascend Sierras and those of the Energy RC10's and and to me the RC10's measured as well as the Sierras?
Here are the two links: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/energy_rc_10/
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/

So considering 3rd party measurments are considered more reliable am I crazy to beleive the RC10's will be anything close the the Sierras? I am asking because I never heard the Ascends but I do like neutral speakers and IMO the Energy RC's are just that. So would the Ascends be worth the risk or should I stick with a speaker I have already auditioned?

Thanks, Billy P

In examining the measurements of the two sets of loudspeakers there are some significant differences those unfamiliar with the applicable perceptual research might not notice or consider significant. Firstly, look at the off-axis response of the RC10 as compared to the Sierra-1 as the angle is increased the Sierra maintains its similarity to axial response far better than the RC10. Also, it is worth noting the differences between distortion when comparing the loudspeakers especially in the recommended passband when coupled with stereo subs.

It is also important to note that the Soundstage measurements are not complete as there is no measurement of resonance found within the cabinet [there is more I would consider missing]. The Energy speaker uses typical, insufficient, methods of dampening which would likely result in far higher resonance as compared to the unique Sierra-1 design. This higher resonance would decrease perceived linearity of the Energy speakers due to the large, audible, amounts of coloration produced.

If you like Energy, audioadvisor right now has a sale on the Energy RC-10 and RC-30.


Chris, with regard to active in room correction. I was reading about the NHT XD system. The brain behind that system is a DSP processor that does active in room correction, active crossover, as well as doing some DSP processing that compensates for imperfections inherent in the speaker.

I think I read somewhere that NHT incorporated a downsized version of DEQX's HDP-3 into their XD system.

http://www.deqx.com/

But with the value of the U.S. dollar plummeting world wide, the cost of a standalone HDP-3 is now almost $6000. The older version (before all the dollar free fall), PDC-2.6 listed for around $2,600.


Any thoughts on this HDP-3 or the older version PDC-2.6 Chris?

While I am not familiar with this unit I can guarantee you it is a complete waste of money. For less than $300 you can purchase a unit that is likely more versatile and just as, if not more transparent, the Behringer DCX2496. Coupled with these sufficiently linear speakers such as the Sierra-1s you would be able to add stereo subwoofers seamlessly and tailor virtually any desired response. The money saved not buying the multi-thousand dollar NHT unit could be more ideally spent on even more competent speakers.

While the Behringer unit does require user input, as it is not active, this is a relatively simple process that could be done using a $50 microphone and a $40 pre-amp for the microphone. Also, the program for use with the DCX is extremely simple to use and well designed.

 

[furrycute]

Right on the Canadian border. If you like, we can duke it out right here on top of Niagara falls.

Have to look you up next time I'm in New York. Upstate or City?

 

[furrycute]

Thanks. As always, I always respect the knowledge you and Chris have with regards to everything audio.

Yes, I remember the Behringer unit. Quite an impressive piece of engineering. I got curious about that DEQX unit because it seems to go a step further than the Behringer unit, in that the DEQX unit can deploy automatic room correction, as well as make corrections for small flaws present in the speaker driver, cabinet. Yes you are right that you can achieve the same thing with the Behringer unit, but you have to fiddle a lot with the settings. I am a simple man, too many fiddling gets me confused really quickly...

Regardless of which scheme you use, it does seem that this whole DSP room correction concept has really taken off in the audio world.

Do you have any experience with those Meridian systems? I read somewhere that they also employ DSP correction. Are the concepts employed by Meridian similar to what we are discussing here?

While I am not familiar with this unit I can guarantee you it is a complete waste of money. For less than $300 you can purchase a unit that is likely more versatile and just as, if not more transparent, the Behringer DCX2496. Coupled with these sufficiently linear speakers such as the Sierra-1s you would be able to add stereo subwoofers seamlessly and tailor virtually any desired response. The money saved not buying the multi-thousand dollar NHT unit could be more ideally spent on even more competent speakers.

While the Behringer unit does require user input, as it is not active, this is a relatively simple process that could be done using a $50 microphone and a $40 pre-amp for the microphone. Also, the program for use with the DCX is extremely simple to use and well designed.

 

[billy p]

In examining the measurements of the two sets of loudspeakers there are some significant differences those unfamiliar with the applicable perceptual research might not notice or consider significant. Firstly, look at the off-axis response of the RC10 as compared to the Sierra-1 as the angle is increased the Sierra maintains its similarity to axial response far better than the RC10. Also, it is worth noting the differences between distortion when comparing the loudspeakers especially in the recommended passband when coupled with stereo subs.

It is also important to note that the Soundstage measurements are not complete as there is no measurement of resonance found within the cabinet [there is more I would consider missing]. The Energy speaker uses typical, insufficient, methods of dampening which would likely result in far higher resonance as compared to the unique Sierra-1 design. This higher resonance would decrease perceived linearity of the Energy speakers due to the large, audible, amounts of coloration produced.



Thanks, Andrew!!
I guess for most people graphs really can't tell the whole story. Heh.. especially to those of us who can't read them with any sort of accuracy. I will be considering the Ascends when the time comes.
Regards, Billy P

 

[WmAx]

Yes, I remember the Behringer unit. Quite an impressive piece of engineering. I got curious about that DEQX unit because it seems to go a step further than the Behringer unit, in that the DEQX unit can deploy automatic room correction, as well as make corrections for small flaws present in the speaker driver, cabinet. Yes you are right that you can achieve the same thing with the Behringer unit, but you have to fiddle a lot with the settings. I am a simple man, too many fiddling gets me confused really quickly...

The DCX can do most of the things that the DEQX can do, however, the DEQX does have some additional flexibility. The DEQX has up to 300 dB/octave crossover filters with linear phase transfer functions, if you want to use brick wall-style filters in your loud speaker. While in practice, this is not a significant benefit(in fact, it may be a detriment, due to the severe pre-ringing artifacts that will exist off axis when using linear phase high rate crossovers), it is still none the less, an additional feature possible with the DEQX. The automated room correction ability is also a plus to many people.

Do you have any experience with those Meridian systems? I read somewhere that they also employ DSP correction. Are the concepts employed by Meridian similar to what we are discussing here?

The Meridian DSP8000, which is Meridian's flagship speaker system, uses DSP active crossovers. However, despite the potential, it has rather mediocre measured response linearity.

-Chris

 

[furrycute]

Thanks for the explanations Chris. I am just interested in the pseudo-technical aspects of these gadgets. I would need a small fortune to be able to afford to play with these gadgets. Which I don't. It's like watching a red Ferrari passing you by on the street, you know you can't afford it, but in your head, you can always lust after it...

 

[furrycute]

In case anyone is looking to buy some Blu Tack, someone on another forum posted that this site sells Blu Tack for $2.99 per pack, much less expensive than the $10 per pack audioadvisor is charging.

http://www.glubie.com/01_Pages/Blu-Tack.htm