Are 2 watts better than 200?

T

tom67

Full Audioholic
Yeah, and the readers responses (still ongoing) actually more interesting than the contention in the article...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
:D:DTubes RULE!!!:D:D

It is not always about the watts.
Yes it is about the watts.

Nothing defines better the absolute bankruptcy of the loony high end.

To seriously state that a single ended triode amplifier can be offered as an amplifier to be listened to in this day and age just deserves a belly laugh.

Just research the wave forms out of those things. If you think it reasonable to propagate such rubbish, then you have a DSM diagnosis along with the rest of them.

Remember no clipping is batter than any clipping, let alone a boat load of it!

I got away from single ended triodes when I graduated out of the nursery, literally.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
This is an example of an amp behaving as an EQ/DSP. If that is your preference (ability to alter the amplified waveform via tube swap) then go for it.

I don't think this amp would meet my needs. I have been known to play Rush YYZ at ear blistering levels. 2 watts isn't going to cut it.

I am curiously considering the Yaqin ML MS-20L. We will see how much my curiosity costs me:D
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Are 2 watts better than 200? That begs the question, the primary question regarding power amps, more basic than what circuit topology is best, namely do they have the power you need? Sorry, but unless your driving a ridiculously efficient transducer, using a 2 watt amp is like attempting to tow a trailer up a mountain with a yugo. Not a very well though out plan if you ask me. Even with the well above normal efficiency of the Zu speakers the Decware had trouble.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Just research the wave forms out of those things. If you think it reasonable to propagate such rubbish, then you have a DSM diagnosis along with the rest of them.
I have never agreed with you more.:D

Spectrum analysers, oscilloscopes, Fourier, Laplace, Tesla, Ohm, Ampere, Newton and many scientist, engineers got us to the moon long ago, cell phone technology, satellite technology, GPS, auto pilot jumbo jets that we rely so much one, yet such no scientific BS continues. So no one please tell me there are things we can't measure that account to those audiophile reviewers preferred SQ. Freaking incredible!!

Whoever has the technical know how to design and build such amps, how the heck do they know what I, or Walter, or any so called audiophile would like to hear?

More 3 D like, wider sound stage, micro dynamics blablabla, give me a break. Amplifiers should just amplify the signal, while doing so, don't add noise, stick to accuracy, be faithful to the source players, devices whatever they are, and those source devices should just stick to the souce material be it CD, BR, computer server etc. and then the souce material should work on preserving what the recording/mix/studio engineers and musicians, conductors had previously created. Then let the end user to be the judge and who may choose to process the signal with other hardware and firmware that are desing to do so. Next topic....
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
I am curiously considering the Yaqin ML MS-20L. We will see how much my curiosity costs me:D
I got to hear that very amp against Decware amps at a get together last year. The technically inferior Decware walked all over the Yaqin. (Of course this was a sighted comparison, and we were all suffering from mass delusion induced by super salesmen from another planet.:rolleyes:...I will fully admit the technical inferiority of SET amps, but my ears/brain sure like what they do, flaws be damned. I would not recommend them to others except under extremely limited and specific conditions. Doc, I'm still looking forward to playing with a Quad, but haven't had the chance to yet.)

You (jinjuku) and 3db have both expressed interest in tube gear. The easiest way to do it is to decide what you want to try and pick up a used one. Only target gear that holds it's value (use eBay sales data or Audiogon bluebook; the 'in demand' used items come up less frequently, but typically can be sold for what you originally paid). Buy one and try it out. If it piques your curiostity, great. If not, sell it and get you money back out; you've lost nothing and gained experience.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Yes it is about the watts.

Nothing defines better the absolute bankruptcy of the loony high end.
I completely agree, it is about the watts. Your speaker choice should determine just how many watts you need to pay for. The author of that article has it backwards. He is implying that a 2 watt amp - of archaic design - is better, therefore one should choose speakers capable of being driven by it. Of course, those very sensitive speakers he mentioned are expensive and perform miserably.

I try to avoid making comparisons between cars and audio, but advocating vacuum tube amps because they clip gradually reminds me of an aged debate over radial-ply tires vs. bias-ply tires. That debate is long since forgotten, and you have to be as old as I am to even remember it :D.

The debate went like this, when radial-ply tires were new in the US (they had been long accepted as standard in Europe) people found that they provided superior traction while turning, at higher speeds than did the older type bias-ply tires. One major difference was that the radial tires gave less warning to the driver that they were nearing the point where they would break loose. Some people, who were used to driving with bias tires, were unpleasantly surprised by this because the older tires gave lots of warning that they were going to loose it. A few people argued, mistakenly, that bias-ply were better even though they provided much less traction than the radial tires.

Now the market has settled that silly debate, but it reminds me of the similarly misguided arguement that tube amps are better because they clip gradually (tube-o-philes will say gracefully instead of gradually). An amp should never ever clip. Gracefull clipping is still something to avoid.
 
T

tom67

Full Audioholic
watts

Yes it is about the watts.

Nothing defines better the absolute bankruptcy of the loony high end.

To seriously state that a single ended triode amplifier can be offered as an amplifier to be listened to in this day and age just deserves a belly laugh.

Just research the wave forms out of those things. If you think it reasonable to propagate such rubbish, then you have a DSM diagnosis along with the rest of them.

Remember no clipping is batter than any clipping, let alone a boat load of it!

I got away from single ended triodes when I graduated out of the nursery, literally.
Exactly, thats why you want to keep the output under 1.5 watts with these units.....to avoid clipping. And, you want efficient speakers and cut back on ambient noise like chewing, toilet flushing and forced air heating and cooling systems. Keep windows closed to cut back on outside noise and use headphones when you can...
 
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B

Boerd

Full Audioholic

Where are the measurements in that article?

2W could be OK for horns or some speakers with ridiculous efficiency but it will suck for 99% of the speakers.
My system has 1600W of amplification for 2 subs (2x500W) and 2 speakers (600W). I can't see how my system would work with a 2W amplifier... Just can't see my speakers at 100-105 db with 2 W :)
I like punk, metal and organ music.
Punk and metal better be loud :)
Organ music needs serious subs.
How do you do this with 2 Watts?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Where are the measurements in that article?

2W could be OK for horns or some speakers with ridiculous efficiency but it will suck for 99% of the speakers.
My system has 1600W of amplification for 2 subs (2x500W) and 2 speakers (600W). I can't see how my system would work with a 2W amplifier... Just can't see my speakers at 100-105 db with 2 W :)
I like punk, metal and organ music.
Punk and metal better be loud :)
Organ music needs serious subs.
How do you do this with 2 Watts?
The wave form is still lousy on those SETs even within their operating range. Their HF response is severely limited and a square wave looks like a sine wave! Mind you if you are listening to a vicious horn you need a lot of HF attenuation. They don't have much LF to speak of either, so they really can be looked at as very low powered band pass amplifiers. Now who wants to listen to a band pass amp with mega distortion after about 1.5 watts? I don't. The whole concept is insane.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
:D:DTubes RULE!!!:D:D
Tube gear has a fun factor, for sure, which (for those who are susceptible) can truly enhance the overall experience. I admit, I'm one of those. Perhaps my value here is as one who's gone down the rabbit hole so others don't have to. Still love me some tubes though.

I got into tube gear after hearing one and thinking, gee, that does indeed sound really nice. So, not in a quest for ultimate fidelity of signal, but rather exploring other options which tickle my particular perception as enjoyable/pleasant, it has lead me down a rather fun path. Those Decware amps actually can push something like a LaScala, I've heard it, but that's a 104db/w speaker. (Next up on the hobby to-do list is going fully active, four SET channels with restricted bandwidth feeding the mids and highs-they're all in the neighborhood of 115db/w, w/ ss control for the bass bins. I won't be inviting mtry over for beers and listening sessions, but this has been a total blast to play around with, lemme tell ya.)

I have one system which would meet Audioholics' standards of objective performance. It's the only system I have measured and can speak with authority about, and for a bunch of mid-fi level gear, it measures and performs remarkably well. How do my tube systems compare subjectively? Well, they're much more similar than different. Extremely similar. I suppose it makes sense since the measured system is the 'keep me honest' reference against which I guage. Tubes are easier on the ears long term, for sure. They seem to have more vitality, but that could be the jedi-mind tricks at work. Delusion or not, the end result is the perception of musicians in the room with you. It works, and it's pretty cool.

Experiencing music is ultimately an emotional thing, demonstrably involving more areas of the brain than language perception or vision. It's not an analytic thing. Everyone enjoys it in their own way. Tubes can add nostalgia factor that is not measured in any way, but positively impacts the actual perception of the subject. Their perception is real to them.

On the road to audio nirvana, the Jedi mind tricks work. Why not use them to your advantage? Some aversion to pleasure? That actually is in the DSM, as is OCD.

I'm not so sure why the objectivists care so strongly about how an end-user enjoys music in their own homes, but I fully understand their fight against folks preying on the gullible selling nonsense. But then experience confounds reasonable expectations. Logic infoms me that Decware amps are nonsense, but the ears say something else. When it comes to enjoying some relaxing music after work, I go with what the ears say.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Tube gear has a fun factor, for sure, which (for those who are susceptible) can truly enhance the overall experience. I admit, I'm one of those. Perhaps my value here is as one who's gone down the rabbit hole so others don't have to. Still love me some tubes though.

I got into tube gear after hearing one and thinking, gee, that does indeed sound really nice. So, not in a quest for ultimate fidelity of signal, but rather exploring other options which tickle my particular perception as enjoyable/pleasant, it has lead me down a rather fun path. Those Decware amps actually can push something like a LaScala, I've heard it, but that's a 104db/w speaker. (Next up on the hobby to-do list is going fully active, four SET channels with restricted bandwidth feeding the mids and highs-they're all in the neighborhood of 115db/w, w/ ss control for the bass bins. I won't be inviting mtry over for beers and listening sessions, but this has been a total blast to play around with, lemme tell ya.)

I have one system which would meet Audioholics' standards of objective performance. It's the only system I have measured and can speak with authority about, and for a bunch of mid-fi level gear, it measures and performs remarkably well. How do my tube systems compare subjectively? Well, they're much more similar than different. Extremely similar. I suppose it makes sense since the measured system is the 'keep me honest' reference against which I guage. Tubes are easier on the ears long term, for sure. They seem to have more vitality, but that could be the jedi-mind tricks at work. Delusion or not, the end result is the perception of musicians in the room with you. It works, and it's pretty cool.

Experiencing music is ultimately an emotional thing, demonstrably involving more areas of the brain than language perception or vision. It's not an analytic thing. Everyone enjoys it in their own way. Tubes can add nostalgia factor that is not measured in any way, but positively impacts the actual perception of the subject. Their perception is real to them.

On the road to audio nirvana, the Jedi mind tricks work. Why not use them to your advantage? Some aversion to pleasure? That actually is in the DSM.

I'm not so sure why the objectivists care so strongly about how an end-user enjoys music in their own homes, but I fully understand their fight against folks preying on the gullible selling nonsense. But then experience confounds reasonable expectations. Logic infoms me that Decware amps are nonsense, but the ears say something else. When it comes to enjoying some relaxing music after work, I go with what the ears say.
A well designed class A push pull tube amp is one thing. A SET is a totally different kettle of fish.

I got over my jollies from tubes forty years ago. All the same I would not mind having my Leak TL 10 and TL 12 back. I still have my old Mullard 10/10 and keep wondering if I should restore it.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
A well designed class A push pull tube amp is one thing. A SET is a totally different kettle of fish.

I got over my jollies from tubes forty years ago. All the same I would not mind having my Leak TL 10 and TL 12 back. I still have my old Mullard 10/10 and keep wondering if I should restore it.
I think in my SET voyages I'm appreciating the 'class A' things they can do, hence my interest in those Quads you're fond of. The fact that building SETs is far less expensive than any other way to get class A operation helps a frugal spender like me, and it's been fun and educational.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I'm not so sure why the objectivists care so strongly about how an end-user enjoys music in their own homes, but I fully understand their fight against folks preying on the gullible selling nonsense. But then experience confounds reasonable expectations. Logic infoms me that Decware amps are nonsense, but the ears say something else. When it comes to enjoying some relaxing music after work, I go with what the ears say.
You last paragraph really hits everything that is of importance. I don't think for a second most objectivists cares how the end user enjoys their music. I think the objectivist wants to dispel some rather common B.S. I think it's the newb end-user that benefits from threads like this.

I have no problem with the facts that Tube amps:

1. Are often higher with low order distortion. Distortion that may me pleasing
2. Their sound can be EQ's via tube swap
3. They often aren't output monsters
4. Can be more expensive to maintain

What I can't countance is the subjectivists wanting to gloss over what are commonly, factually, associated with tube vs SS amplification. It's just like the subjectivists that recommend external amplification as a SQ measure vs a nice receiver and never ask about room dimension/layout/seating distance/treatments. I've even seen where the external amp made zero difference for the end user. What do they do next: tell them to get better cables:eek: Come to find out it's 12X10 room with around a 8-9 foot seating distance. DUH!

If anything is gotten across it is: go in with eyes wide open and a potential method for fair and unbiased evaluation. If you think a power cable sounds better, and you are spending $300 on it you should take the next simple step and know that makes a difference. The end result being is that you may have $300 to spend on something else that makes a real SQ difference.

How many people that have $1/2K in IC/PC/SC have room treatments? Really curious about that.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Where are the measurements in that article?

2W could be OK for horns or some speakers with ridiculous efficiency but it will suck for 99% of the speakers.
That's why Paul Klipsch supposedly said something like "A good 5W/ch amplifier and a pair of my speakers is all anyone needs".

I don't think anyone would try to make the case that an amp like this would work with more than a few speaker systems, unless the speakers were duct taped to the head of the listener (proximity is everything).
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think many people disregard the effect of the source material's frequency/harmonic/dynamic content when referring to SET vs solid state amplifiers. If the content is limited to more of the mid-range frequencies, has limited dynamics and isn't too complex, it can sound good for reproduction. Driven hard, they compress dynamics, clip and lose their fidelity. However, as a design for producing the sounds of electric guitars on recordings, they sound very good to those of us who would use them (although I still prefer push-pull Class AB for that). Most other people would just roll their eyes and walk away, muttering.

It would be interesting to use an amp like this on a desktop system, IMO.

Why is it that some say it's important that we have detailed specs for speakers, but when an amplifier's specs are terrible when compared with a Solid State amplifiers, some say "don't worry about the specs, just listen to the music"?
 

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