Anyone implementing whole house solar that's grid tied?

[jinjuku]

Just wanting to crunch some numbers to see what makes sense. Unfortunately there is no more Net Metering with AES so that makes it a bit harder to recoup.

I wish federal energy policy would address this issue.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just wanting to crunch some numbers to see what makes sense. Unfortunately there is no more Net Metering with AES so that makes it a bit harder to recoup.

I wish federal energy policy would address this issue.

Unfortunately the only suitable roof line on our house faces North.

That is a major issue with this, as many homes do not have suitable roofs. When I was in Northern Minnesota, I considered becoming part of a sun farm. A good idea in theory. It was great in July, it produced lost of power. In January the whole outfit only produced half the electricity I used in a month. We did have a lot of off peak electric heat though. But you see the problem. In addition we have the issue here of the panels getting covered in snow and ice. I think if solar is going to gain headway, it needs to be concentrated in desert SW, and connected to the rest of the country by high voltage lines. The other major issue with solar is that it produces low voltage DC. So, you need inverters to convert to AC so it can be converted to high voltage AC. That blows at least 40% of what the panels generate.

I think there is a lot of wishful, and in fact creative fanciful thinking, about renewable energy. They are finding this out the hard way in Europe. Most of the renewable is wind, and the bulk of it offshore especially in the North Sea and the river estuaries around the UK. However, when the wind does not blow, which happens during the coldest weather as a rule, then there is a scramble for power and brown outs. In addition the cost of maintaining offshore wind farms is proving to be much more costly than projected, and by far. Doing this kind of work in a rough sea is challenging, difficult and dangerous.

If we don't approve, and start building, nuclear power plants on a massive scale we will never get to net zero.

During last month the UK moved some Net Zero targets 20 years down the road and have granted licenses to drill in a huge oil and gas field NW of the Scottish Shetland Islands. This has not generated the howls of protests yet, that I thought it wood. I think people are starting to realize that this climate crisis will not be solved with windmills and solar panels, not even close. There has to be a serious rethink. One of the issues generating this in the UK is realizing there is not enough power for the electric vehicles they already have, and are having to install diesel generators at charging points at some motorway service stations.

We have to start thinking about this in a much more accountable manner. The public have been fed totally unrealistic pipedreams.

 

[jinjuku]

Well, they won't permit for a personal nuclear power plant, so I have a south facing roof and the PVWatts calculator gives me this for estimated solar fall:

Now my home energy requirements only peak past 1000 in June, July August. So my thoughts are is to size an array that covers my 100% need for 9 months and then ~70% for the summer.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, they won't permit for a personal nuclear power plant, so I have south facing roof access and the PVWatts calculator give me this for estimated solar fall:
View attachment 63618

Now my home energy requirements only peak past 1000 in June, July August. So my thoughts are is to size an array that covers my 100% need for 9 months and then ~70% for the summer.

For you it might pay off, but I doubt you will recover the capital cost. Those numbers would not work for us, especially in the winter. We use electricity for cooking and in the winter, for us it would not be much use. For us even if we had a south facing roof, our winter numbers would be far worse as we are further north.
Then you will have to factor in the cost of maintaining and replacing batteries. You will need them in the night time hours. You will need batteries as if you don't capture the excess daytime production, it will not be worth it.
I looked at this in Benedict Lake, where we had a huge south facing roof expanse. To me the numbers did not come out positive. That Bemidji community solar farm turned out a bust by the way, which I thought it would.

 

[jinjuku]

I'm looking at 400 amp hour worth of battery and grid tied inverter that prevent backfeed upon power outage. I can do ~6400 watts of panel for ~$12K. I can install and pay an electrician to pull permits and wire into the panel.

The thing that kicked it off is that a 10Kwh generac is ~$6500 installed and it just sits there doing nothing.

I need to get a year of usage in the new house but I think this can be paying for itself in 9 - 10 years.

The Litihium-Iron-Phosphate batteries are good for about 12 years.

I get cost savings and I get lights out protection.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

This might be helpful: https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

 

[adk highlander]

Boo. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[panteragstk]

Boo. Can't say I'm surprised.
View attachment 63640

Same. Boo.

 

[jinjuku]

This might be helpful: https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

This is a nice tool as it calculates, roughly, your rate of return.

 

[Mr._Clark]

I'm looking at 400 amp hour worth of battery and grid tied inverter that prevent backfeed upon power outage. I can do ~6400 watts of panel for ~$12K. I can install and pay an electrician to pull permits and wire into the panel.

The thing that kicked it off is that a 10Kwh generac is ~$6500 installed and it just sits there doing nothing.

I need to get a year of usage in the new house but I think this can be paying for itself in 9 - 10 years.

The Litihium-Iron-Phosphate batteries are good for about 12 years.

I get cost savings and I get lights out protection.

I'm assuming you looked into this, but feeding excess power back into the grid and getting paid for it can be a challenge.

Net Metering: How You Can Save Even More Money With Solar

Many utilities will pay you for the extra power your solar panel system produces, but this popular policy is changing in many places.

www.cnet.com

I ran some rough numbers and solar didn't make sense for me.

I thought about setting up a solar system with battery backup at my cottage to power all my 12 volt equipment (e.g. security cameras, WiFi, etc.) in case of a power outage, but even that didn't make sense financially (I set up a large backup battery that stays charged and kicks in when the power goes out)

I've thought about wiring up a low voltage DC solar system for all the DC electronic devices in my house to bypass the 120 AC system. It seems ridiculous to ramp up solar to 120 AC then convert it back to DC for TVs and so on. It also seems somewhat ridiculous to me to run 120 AC to every single light in the house, then convert it to DC at the LED bulb, which generates heat and cooks the light. On the other hand, I'm not about to rewire my entire house to DC.

 

[jinjuku]

I'm trying to get the 2021 usage for the house I moved to. If my hunch that July/August are outlier usage months and the rest of the year falls in line I think if I can pull off ~$9K for a 6/7Kwatt array and a 400 amp / 48v battery backup that it will save me $900 a year and I have power in the event of an outage. I would be looking @ ~ 7 year payoff. Plus I would get a 30% tax break.

A 10KWH Generac is ~$6500 and that's a sunk cost.

It sucks that net metering was killed in Indiana.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

A 10KWH Generac is ~$6500 and that's a sunk cost.

genny isn't a sunk cost unless you expect never to sell the house. The sunk costs are $400/year for maintenance service for the genny.

Does A Whole House Generator Add Value To Your Home?

Homeowners are always looking for ways to add value to their properties.With nearly 140 million housing units in the U.S., the home industry is booming, including construction and electrical services.One of the most important parts of any home is electricity.You need electricity for just about...

upgradedhome.com

 

[jinjuku]

genny isn't a sunk cost unless you expect never to sell the house. The sunk costs are $400/year for maintenance service for the genny.

Does A Whole House Generator Add Value To Your Home?

Homeowners are always looking for ways to add value to their properties.With nearly 140 million housing units in the U.S., the home industry is booming, including construction and electrical services.One of the most important parts of any home is electricity.You need electricity for just about...

upgradedhome.com

It's like a car though. It depreciates. From the article you posted:

Urban homes rarely need whole house generators and having one is unlikely to increase home value in the city.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It's like a car though. It depreciates. From the article you posted:

Urban homes rarely need whole house generators and having one is unlikely to increase home value in the city.

Well, I live in a suburban where power isn't 100% stable. I'm sure in rural areas genny might be even more helpful.

 

[adk highlander]

Well, I live in a suburban where power isn't 100% stable. I'm sure in rural areas genny might be even more helpful.

Absolutely. We are hoping when our neighbors get one we will do at the same time and save a little money. I still have too many trees I am sure for solar

 

[highfigh]

Unfortunately the only suitable roof line on our house faces North.

That is a major issue with this, as many homes do not have suitable roofs. When I was in Northern Minnesota, I considered becoming part of a sun farm. A good idea in theory. It was great in July, it produced lost of power. In January the whole outfit only produced half the electricity I used in a month. We did have a lot of off peak electric heat though. But you see the problem. In addition we have the issue here of the panels getting covered in snow and ice. I think if solar is going to gain headway, it needs to be concentrated in desert SW, and connected to the rest of the country by high voltage lines. The other major issue with solar is that it produces low voltage DC. So, you need inverters to convert to AC so it can be converted to high voltage AC. That blows at least 40% of what the panels generate.

I think there is a lot of wishful, and in fact creative fanciful thinking, about renewable energy. They are finding this out the hard way in Europe. Most of the renewable is wind, and the bulk of it offshore especially in the North Sea and the river estuaries around the UK. However, when the wind does not blow, which happens during the coldest weather as a rule, then there is a scramble for power and brown outs. In addition the cost of maintaining offshore wind farms is proving to be much more costly than projected, and by far. Doing this kind of work in a rough sea is challenging, difficult and dangerous.

If we don't approve, and start building, nuclear power plants on a massive scale we will never get to net zero.

During last month the UK moved some Net Zero targets 20 years down the road and have granted licenses to drill in a huge oil and gas field NW of the Scottish Shetland Islands. This has not generated the howls of protests yet, that I thought it wood. I think people are starting to realize that this climate crisis will not be solved with windmills and solar panels, not even close. There has to be a serious rethink. One of the issues generating this in the UK is realizing there is not enough power for the electric vehicles they already have, and are having to install diesel generators at charging points at some motorway service stations.

We have to start thinking about this in a much more accountable manner. The public have been fed totally unrealistic pipedreams.

What voltage are you considering when you say it's 'low voltage'?

I assume you have seen the Just Stop Oil protests- IMO, most of them have a fundamental lack of knowledge about energy. They also don't understand that the vests and banners they use are made from oil, but hey- they're probably justifying that to make the larger point. Then, they force drives to crawl along, wasting the fuel that could have been used to get them to their destinations. They don't have ideas or alternative fuel ideas, they just want to protest (many are paid).

IMO, residential roofs need to have solar panels of some kind, so large fields won't be needed in highly populated areas. They should also use batteries for storage. Yes, the batteries and associated devices cost more, require maintenance and installation skills that aren't needed for other systems, but this would decrease the need to devote large open spaces or use the roofs on large buildings for supplying the whole area.

 

[highfigh]

genny isn't a sunk cost unless you expect never to sell the house. The sunk costs are $400/year for maintenance service for the genny.

Does A Whole House Generator Add Value To Your Home?

Homeowners are always looking for ways to add value to their properties.With nearly 140 million housing units in the U.S., the home industry is booming, including construction and electrical services.One of the most important parts of any home is electricity.You need electricity for just about...

upgradedhome.com

Why does it cost $400/year for maintenance?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Why does it cost $400/year for maintenance?

well, I guess you could do it yourself for much cheaper, but if you want the 10-year extended warranty (like the case of Kohler), it will require 3rd party maintenance service contract for the genny to have its warranty valid, which generally costs 200-500 per year.
See example here:

Kohler Generator Warranty | 10 Year Warranty | Premier Generator

Safeguard your investment with Kohler's 10-year warranty, ensuring long-term protection for your generator. Learn more

premiergenerator.com

Whole-House Generator Maintenance Cost [2024 Data] | Angi

Keeping on top of generator maintenance and repairs gives you extra peace of mind as a homeowner. Find out how much regular generator maintenance costs.

www.angi.com

 

[jinjuku]

The thing is with at least the tax rebate solar gets very close to the installed cost of a generator and I can reduce my energy bill.

I'll keep things updated when I can figure out what size system I can get that meets the mean and not the peak usage.

Stop me if my thinking is incorrect: If I only peak at 1200-1400Kwh for 2/2.5 months out of the year and the rest is sub 1000 I should stand pat on a lower cost system that could cover me for 10 months at 100% or better.

 

[TLS Guy]

well, I guess you could do it yourself for much cheaper, but if you want the 10-year extended warranty (like the case of Kohler), it will require 3rd party maintenance service contract for the genny to have its warranty valid, which generally costs 200-500 per year.
See example here:

Kohler Generator Warranty | 10 Year Warranty | Premier Generator

Safeguard your investment with Kohler's 10-year warranty, ensuring long-term protection for your generator. Learn more

premiergenerator.com

Whole-House Generator Maintenance Cost [2024 Data] | Angi

Keeping on top of generator maintenance and repairs gives you extra peace of mind as a homeowner. Find out how much regular generator maintenance costs.

www.angi.com

I researched generators thoroughly when I moved from the lake. I had a vintage Kohler/Wisconsin V4 there, which was marvellous.

So when I moved here I did a lot of research and inspected the lot. There is only one reliable choice, and that is Cummins. They bought out Onan years ago, but starting 2019, they designed excellent new engines from the ground up, and all made in America. All the others have pretty junk engines and they do blow up. Generac is probably the bottom of the heap. Kohler are fair, but they are known for burning out the valves and have seen that in their V-twins.

So Cummins is worth the slight premium.

There was no service contact here in Eagan, as the service was from White Bear Lake, but they have recently started a service contract for this side of the metro. I am negotiating now. First proposals were outrageous, but we are getting close now. Basically they want to service it far too often, like changing the battery every two years and other issues. I have done the service myself, and did this years service last week. It is four years old, and so I replaced the acid pour battery with an Optima glass mat battery. They last and last. I know the one I installed at the lake is still going strong after twenty years.

The problem is, I'm not getting younger and I don't know how long I will be able to grovel on the ground. With the engines at ground level you have to pump out the oil. That is not a big deal though. Luckily I have a very well resourced workshop from a lifetime of doing most of my own mechanical work.