Amplifier Power Questions

C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I agree with all of that. However speakers are often not presenting the load to the amp you think they are. In order not to have disappointment your best rough guide is to select an amp that will double it power when driving a 4 ohm load as compared to the power at 8 ohms. That is your best guide that the amp has adequate current reserve. The problem is in the issue of combined resistive and reactive loads, all moving coil speakers. We have this concept of apparent power and true power. The current required for the apparent power is real. The true power is less because some of the energy is stored and given back. I know this is a difficult issue and have avoided it before. But having doodled with loudspeakers for so long, I know current reserve is important to consider in selecting amplifiers.
Would you mind explaining the difference between apparent and true power for me? I don't follow.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Would you mind explaining the difference between apparent and true power for me? I don't follow.
Well it all comes about because current is a vector. In other words it has a magnitude and direction. Now unless a circuit is purely resistive then voltage and current do not follow each other in an AC circuit. This causes current to go in different directions and can create a phase angle.

Now consider a purely inductive circuit, where the impedance of inductance far exceeds the DC resistance of the coil. Now apply an AC signal. There will be current, but it will keep on reversing. Now if you measured the voltage and current at an instant there would be a current. You could multiply this by the voltage and have a power, in VA. This would be apparent power, because actually there would be no power as the current would be going up and down a straight line, so the phase angle would be zero. The cosine of zero is zero. Multiply the current by 0 and you have 0. So there is no actual power. However the current flow is real. In fact there is some power consumed by the resistance of the circuit, but lets assume the circuit is cooled close to absolute zero, like the coil of an MRI scanner. If that were the case apparent power would be volts X amps but true power is zero.

Now lets add a resistor in series with the inductor. Now there is power consumed in the resistor, but there is now a phase angle. The apparent power is still VA, but real power is VA X cosine phase angle. The true power will be less than the apparent power, but the instantaneous currents that create the measurement of apparent power still have to be provided by the amp. Now the same things happen in capacitative circuits, but the phase angles are opposite, because current leads voltage.

Now a speaker has inductors resistors and capacitors, so you can see how it gets complicated and hard to predict, especially given the fact that audio signals are complex and the sum of thousands, may be millions of sine waves, to create a complex wave at an instant.

May be this gives you insight as to what a witches brew it really is. Since the outcome at an instant is to all intense and purposes unpredictable, the best defense is adequate power and the ability to provide lots of current.

All things being equal, and given equivalent attention to design I have found beefier amps to produce better sound more often than not.

This is like poor Senator Obama who did not want to have to give a speech on race. However it was one of the finest dissertations ever given by a politician, or any one for that matter on the issue.

I doubt I have been so effective on shedding light on a subject I was hoping to avoid. However the way the member phrased the question, unless I just said no, there was no avoiding it.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Ah, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me.

This is like poor Senator Obama who did not want to have to give a speech on race. However it was one of the finest dissertations ever given by a politician, or any one for that matter on the issue.

I doubt I have been so effective on shedding light on a subject I was hoping to avoid. However the way the member phrased the question, unless I just said no, there was no avoiding it.
Haha, well, thanks and sorry to put you in that position. ;) I like those types of questions, they are far more interesting than "what speaker do you recommend?" :D
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Thanks Joe!

Now I have a headache.

(Talk to him RJ, will ya?)
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Now I have a headache.

(Talk to him RJ, will ya?)
Talk to him?? I'm going to slap him around a little bit (as soon as my headache goes away)!! :D

EDIT: AHA! Better yet, Dave, I'll make him 'splain it to me! ;)
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Talk to him?? I'm going to slap him around a little bit (as soon as my headache goes away)!! :D

EDIT: AHA! Better yet, Dave, I'll make him 'splain it to me! ;)
No, No! It's Seth's fault. He wanted this thread to turn heads!

Both of take a few aspirin and call me in the morning.
 
AverageJoe

AverageJoe

Full Audioholic
Talk to him?? I'm going to slap him around a little bit (as soon as my headache goes away)!! :D

EDIT: AHA! Better yet, Dave, I'll make him 'splain it to me! ;)

Hey, don't blame me. It was your Aerials and a couple casual conversations that prompted this thread, if I recall. I was perfectly happy with my Pinnacles and Yamaha receiver.:D

Besides, I've spent all my money on the theater - there's nothing left for better/faster/quicker/stronger/louder speakers or amps.:(
 
B

Babalu

Enthusiast
Now I have a headache.

(Talk to him RJ, will ya?)
Whew....glad it's not just me.....thought it was the female issue that kept me from understanding this stuff. I feel so much better....even though my eyeballs are still swollen......and my head aches....It drives me bonkers when I want to understand something so badly and just....CAN'T.

I think I'll go put in a "Groovie Goolies" DVD and get my brain back where it belongs :p
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Whew....glad it's not just me.....thought it was the female issue that kept me from understanding this stuff. I feel so much better....even though my eyeballs are still swollen......and my head aches....It drives me bonkers when I want to understand something so badly and just....CAN'T.

I think I'll go put in a "Groovie Goolies" DVD and get my brain back where it belongs :p
Yeah, I read through line#3 and stopped immediately.:D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, I read through line#3 and stopped immediately.:D
Don't worry. This is not something you can do much about. Just bear in mind to try and pick amps with good current reserve, as things are not as simple as you think.

To understand what I was trying to explain you need some knowledge of trigonometry coupled with at least some basic knowledge of the physics of inductors and capacitors, and the relationship of voltage and current in both.

I have found this tutorial, but it might give you a worse headache or even hypertension. But it is a good step by step tutorial.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/1.html

Babalu, you in particular want to try and understand, which is very much to your credit.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Don't worry. This is not something you can do much about. Just bear in mind to try and pick amps with good current reserve, as things are not as simple as you think.

To understand what I was trying to explain you need some knowledge of trigonometry coupled with at least some basic knowledge of the physics of inductors and capacitors, and the relationship of voltage and current in both.

I have found this tutorial, but it might give you a worse headache or even hypertension. But it is a good step by step tutorial.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/1.html

Babalu, you in particular want to try and understand, which is very much to your credit.

I'm not going to click that link. I'm not going to click that link. I'm not going to cl.......................
 
AverageJoe

AverageJoe

Full Audioholic
I have found this tutorial, but it might give you a worse headache or even hypertension. But it is a good step by step tutorial.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/1.html
Thanks, I think that actually helped me (I guess I gotta have the diagrams and drawings just like the "grease pencil on the screen";)).

As a sanity check, is what follows even close?:

Looking at the Power Factor as it relates to speaker circuits, it looks like it would be an easy process to correct a poor Power Factor if we only intended to send a single frequency tone to the speaker, and the actual power used/needed would also be easy to determine. Our problem, and the reason it's so hard to determine actual power requirements, is that the various frequencies and amplitudes in music and movies are so inconsistant and complex, all we can reasonably do is just estimate our amp requirements as in your "best rough guide" mentioned earlier.
 
AverageJoe

AverageJoe

Full Audioholic
Yes...but in what condition?! You could now be one of those glazed-eyed...you know, like...From Dusk Till Dawn people. :eek:
Oh, man! I looked in the mirror and you're absolutely right!

No change! :(
 
T

trnqk7

Full Audioholic
The cosine of zero is zero. Multiply the current by 0 and you have 0. So there is no actual power. However the current flow is real. In fact there is some power consumed by the resistance of the circuit, but lets assume the circuit is cooled close to absolute zero, like the coil of an MRI scanner. If that were the case apparent power would be volts X amps but true power is zero.

Now lets add a resistor in series with the inductor. Now there is power consumed in the resistor, but there is now a phase angle. The apparent power is still VA, but real power is VA X cosine phase angle. The true power will be less than the apparent power, but the instantaneous currents that create the measurement of apparent power still have to be provided by the amp. Now the same things happen in capacitative circuits, but the phase angles are opposite, because current leads voltage.

Now a speaker has inductors resistors and capacitors, so you can see how it gets complicated and hard to predict, especially given the fact that audio signals are complex and the sum of thousands, may be millions of sine waves, to create a complex wave at an instant.
TLS Guy, the cosine of 0 is actually equal to 1. Graph it out or put it in your calculator-I think you just made a honest mistake. Through a purely resistive load, the voltage and current will be in phase with each other, i.e. the power factor (phase angle as you call it) will be 1 and the apparent power will equal the real power b/c there is no reactive power.

Add an inductor and the current will lag the voltage and create a phase angle, therefore giving a power factor (phase angle) of less than unity and making the apparent power not equal to the real power. We now have reactive power.

Reactive power is defined as VIsin(theta)...which is probably what you intended to imply-in that sin(0)=0. Therefore no reactive power was generated in the scenario you envisioned.

Adding a capacitor gives us a current that leads the voltage, also giving us a power factor of less than unity. It's the same effect of the inductor, with the signs reversed.

Sorry if this is long-winded, I just wanted to clarify for others :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
TLS Guy, the cosine of 0 is actually equal to 1. Graph it out or put it in your calculator-I think you just made a honest mistake. Through a purely resistive load, the voltage and current will be in phase with each other, i.e. the power factor (phase angle as you call it) will be 1 and the apparent power will equal the real power b/c there is no reactive power.

Add an inductor and the current will lag the voltage and create a phase angle, therefore giving a power factor (phase angle) of less than unity and making the apparent power not equal to the real power. We now have reactive power.

Reactive power is defined as VIsin(theta)...which is probably what you intended to imply-in that sin(0)=0. Therefore no reactive power was generated in the scenario you envisioned.

Adding a capacitor gives us a current that leads the voltage, also giving us a power factor of less than unity. It's the same effect of the inductor, with the signs reversed.

Sorry if this is long-winded, I just wanted to clarify for others :D
You are dead right, it should have said sine not cosine. That is what happens at night. Also it is a wake up call we get rusty, and we rely so much on our computer programs to do the heavy lifting. Thanks for the correction.
 
T

trnqk7

Full Audioholic
No problem-sometimes it's fun to put that EE degree to good use ;)
 

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