Always late to the party: Another ER18 build (Rosewood & Maple, Experiments with Joinery)

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djbachelor

Enthusiast
I already posted my first listening impressions and experiences over in Skyline_123's ER18 thread (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/68531-new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger-36.html#post987713) But to recap...

These are not completed, they still need bases, finish sanding, and finish...however, after having them all over the shop for the past 6 months as I work on them off and on, I got pretty eager to put them together and sit down for some "Passive enjoyment"!

A little background: I am a novice woodworker, having done a couple smaller projects for fun (e.g. jewelry boxes) as well as work around the house. I started a modified Statement build with my engineer cousin a few years ago, who made it complicated (double-walled cabinet with sand-filled sides); he'd done this before on another design with terrific results. This complexity, combined with building 3 sets (including centers) and the fact that we are both busy and live far apart means that they are still not done. In the meantime, I got married and bought a house, and of course she said "no way are those behemoths going in our living room" or something to that effect.

I am lucky enough to have landed in a large enough house to accommodate several speaker builds though (although the house itself needs work, which leaves not enough time for building speakers to fill it); so no problem--the statements will go downstairs in the basement theater (maybe overkill for a 13x24 room with two 750 liter sonosubs? oh well, there are worse problems!) and I got to start a new project for living room speakers: enter the ER18s. The goal was for something a little daintier (haha) than the Statements, and design had to offer an acceptable WAF. Between my imagination, inspiration from others' ornate box projects I've seen, and wood I could come up with, I kind of experimented and sorted it out as I went, and here is what I have so far.
 
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
Didn't get many pics of the inner cabinets, but that was all standard:



Beginning to visualize the layout for the front panels:




Front baffle glue-up (rare occasion when I felt that I had enough clamps!)

 
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
REALLY always thought the Inlaid dovetails looked cool, so decided to try for that. Came out ok, but this one got cut apart again in favor of a slightly different layout (sigh).
IMG_20130306_215402.jpg

Setup on top of the inner cabinet--anxious to see these come together, and still trying to imagine/plan out the rest of the layout.

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Here is the joint before cutting out the contrasting Bolivian Rosewood.
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These weren't the ideal sizes to make the side panels, but it's what I had:

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Getting closer, still some hurdles to figure out. (The panels here are glued up, but not to the inner cabinet).

IMG_20130417_215319.jpg
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for the photos!

You may have thought you had enough clamps :rolleyes:. But there will no doubt be a post from someone who will say, you have the wrong type, or you used them all wrong :rolleyes:.

I started a modified Statement build with my engineer cousin a few years ago, who made it complicated (double-walled cabinet with sand-filled sides)…
My sympathies.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Always late to the party: Another ER18 build (Rosewood & Maple, Experiments w...

Those clamps are definitely the wrong ones. You should be using cabinet clamps and clearly the way you clamped them is totally amateurish at best. Just give up at life :p. :D


Great job so far BTW.
 
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
(Uh-oh--I was on a roll, uploading photos... but now it says I've exceeded my quota. How does this work?)
 
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
Haha, thanks... you're both right I'm sure, on the clamps--cutting, gluing and clamping is all still very stressful for me! :eek: I get all harried and start sweating and breathing heavily, cussing and fidgeting with various clamps and blocks of wood randomly until I'm sure it's beyond the point of return, then I go sit down with a whiskey and call my therapist.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Always late to the party: Another ER18 build (Rosewood & Maple, Experiments w...

(Uh-oh--I was on a roll, uploading photos... but now it says I've exceeded my quota. How does this work?)
My advice would be to use photo hosting website like photobucket. Then just copy and past the IMG link.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Those clamps are definitely the wrong ones. You should be using cabinet clamps and clearly the way you clamped them is totally amateurish at best. Just give up at life :p. :D

Great job so far BTW.
I disagree he should use orange bar clamps from home depot. ;)
 
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
I disagree he should use orange bar clamps from home depot. ;)
Right?? Definitely the best value in clamps these days! ...unless you're into $100 a pop Bessy clamps... which are pretty nice looking.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Right?? Definitely the best value in clamps these days! ...unless you're into $100 a pop Bessy clamps... which are pretty nice looking.
I've got a few Bessey's. Not $100 a pop ones, but like $25 a pop ones. I'm pretty happy with them, but they're not perfect for everything and the next couple I get will be like what you have. That's enough thread hi-jacking for one day.

You've gone too far now. You must finish this pair.
 
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
Ok so where were we... Gluing up the panels. I had the back panel and side panels already glued up, but I had to glue joints between the lower and upper front panel, and the dovetails at the same time--definitely aching for a couple more clamps here:

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Didn't come out perfect, but good enough to be a relief.
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Closeup of how the dovetails came out (you can see a couple gaps with bubbly glue--a little disappointing, but I think I can fill it):

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Here is a close-up of the joint between the lower front panel and the baffle:

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djbachelor

Enthusiast
Another terrifying moment--cutting through those cabinets for the drivers...my mind can't help but imagine all the possibilities of what could go wrong, argh! Such a relief when things fit, and appear to be in line.

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Looking pretty satisfying, especially with those scrap 2x4 custom bases.

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A little help from my supervisor as I scrambled to put the crossovers together for a test listen:
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
And we're all caught up--here they sit, in the living room. Sorry about all the grainy or out of focus cell-phone pics. I'm sure that when they are actually completed (if?) I will get out the big camera and snap some real pics.

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So to lead into my listening impressions and questions, this is their acoustic environment... to the right are two large windows, no drapes; to the left is a fireplace--brick covered in mirrors. The shelf in the back left behind the speaker is at a 45 deg angle to the room--and also has mirrors (it's not us--the previous owners I guess liked to look at themselves!) It is open to a hallway and spacious entryway on the left, and open behind to a breakfast nook and into the the kitchen--so there is a wall halfway across a few feet behind the listening position.

They are currently driven by an old Harmon Kardon AVR20ii, 50 or 60 wpc, alleged; usually Spotify streamed from a Nexus 7. I am keeping an eye out for a good deal (i.e. used) on separate components.

All-in-all, these sound terrific as-is, I'm really thrilled with them. I am playing around with angle and positioning to find the best sound and imaging. This has been complete trial-and-error, as I am new to high-end-audio, and I often can't always identify the changes I am hearing. (I am also a big coffee fan, with a pretty extensive home espresso setup--but similarly, I am trying to develop my palate to catch up with my heart and the equipment!)

The one negative aspect which I have identified is a "boominess" in certain bass ranges, especially bass drums in classical music (50-60hz, maybe?). Swerd and Fuzz started helping me out with this over in another thread. As I was using small denon M37 bookshelf speakers before, it is no surprise that these put out way more bass than I am used to for music (although I do have a 13.5 hz sonosub downstairs in the theater room--so I am no longer a stranger to "true bass"). BTW, the HK doesn't have much in the way of equalizer--just a knob for bass and one for treble; they are usually centered (flat).

A couple of questions:

What would be the ideal amount of power to put into these, given the option?

Is there an ideal angle-in for the ER18s, or recommended placement away from the walls? It almost feels like I want to toe-in quite a bit when I'm sitting in the listening position and enjoying an album, and then angle them back out when I'm doing other things in the house and they're on for background music.
 
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djbachelor

Enthusiast
Some notes about what kind of music we’re talking about here might help, too. (Some examples of what I’ve been listening to lately follow, and more about the bass troubles at the end.)

It's been a long time since I naively claimed that “I listen to everything," as I have found a good deal of "music" that I don't care for... However, my appreciation encompasses much of the gamut. In my experience so far, I have really enjoyed these speakers for all sorts of modern tunes featuring instrumentals and electronic effects like a lot of pop and hip hop (music intended to be bass heavy, I guess). For example:

Jamie Cullum- Music is Through
Passion Pit- Little Secrets
Talib Kweli- Around My Way
...or pretty much any of Michael Jackson’s top 100 tunes.

These also sound great on ripping guitar tracks--anything from Rodrigo & Gabriela; or acoustic albums--An Evening with John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess, Friday Night in San Fransisco (Paco de Lucia, John Mclaughlin, Al Dimeola) (two incredible albums if you've never heard them!!)


Eliane Elias’s recording of “Blue In Green”; or the stacked vocal harmonies in Denise Donatelli’s version of “Big Lie, Small World” are sounding amazing--especially depending on how well the imaging is coming out with the way the speakers are positioned at the moment.

I am a musician (or was) and classical music fan as well, and these speakers excel (certainly compared to anything I’ve ever owned) at reproducing things like Rachmaninoff piano preludes, Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini, or 3rd Piano Concerto. Ok--so it turns out I'm a big Rach' fan).


Or chamber music--Vivaldi’s Winter from the 4 seasons or Bach’s Brandenburg Concertos performed by Academy of St Martin in the Fields--excellent for showing off their clarity throughout different timbres of instrumental solos and harmonies.

Saint Saens No 3--a fantastic test for any full-range system--sounds awesome and made me downright giddy on hearing the pedal tones for the first time. No complaints!

Chamber Brass has also been a thrilling test of the speakers' worth--sparkling altissimo trumpet solos, rich midrange harmonies from horns and trombones, and world-class tuba players right in the living room. “Nina” from Canadian Brass, “Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor” from Chicago Symphony Orchestra Brass…

Ok enough examples, but there are 100 more in my head (or in my spotify playlists, to be more exact)… the best compliment I can give is that these speakers make me downright excited about listening to good music again! It has been far too long that I merely “enjoyed it,” but didn’t really care.

But here is where I started to notice trouble with the bass: after listening to “Crown Imperial” from C.S.O.B. on headphones at work, I couldn't wait to get home and crank it up in the system to enjoy its prolific display of all the aforementioned qualities. When it came through the ER18s, though--there were bass drum hits--which were quite balanced if not subtle in headphones--which boomed or resonated throughout the room, and really seemed overpowering. So much so, in fact, that I felt compelled to turn down the bass on the receiver or skip the track. That’s disappointing, and strange that it seems balanced or at least pleasant for most other tracks. (Since then, I have found a couple other tunes where I would say the bass sounds unpleasantly and unnaturally amplified.)

I wondered if it might have been in the album production, and the bass was unnaturally amplified in the mix in anticipation of lower output speakers? Or, is it an artifact of the room (like that weird 45 deg shelf in the corner) or speaker placement… or simply a characteristic of the “mass loaded transmission line” speakers? Maybe time and experimentation will tell; meanwhile, I welcome more thoughts, ideas, or bits of advice.

Thanks again to the Audioholics community--I have found a lot of inspiration here.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Wow! The Rosewood and Maple cabinets are wonderful. Very well done. What kind of finish are you planning. Something like a clear coat?

I'll have to alert Dennis Murphy and Paul Kittinger to have a look at these beauties. Maybe Paul will have some ideas what to do about the bass.

The only thing that comes to mind is this. When a TL is unstuffed, there is a significant ripple to the bass response that varies with the frequency. As more stuffing is added, this becomes smoother, but too much can harm the sound. That is the over-simplified explanation. Maybe you might benefit from a bit more polyfill stuffing. Paul has enough experience with TL design and building that he might recognize your problem.
 
Natrix

Natrix

Junior Audioholic
You have some amazing woodworking talent and display excellent craftsmanship and creativity. Those look absolutely beautiful and as soon as you get whatever finish applied they can only get better.
 
ARES24

ARES24

Full Audioholic
I love it when people mention that they are 'novice' woodworkers and then pull stuff like this off. I know professionals that wouldn't even attempt this. Looks great, I hope you are happy with this build! (considering how much work you have put into them!!:eek:) I am reasonably sure the speakers can be modified to output the sound that you would like. I don't suppose you have the equipment to run a frequency test?
 
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Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Wow! The Rosewood and Maple cabinets are wonderful. Very well done. What kind of finish are you planning. Something like a clear coat?

I'll have to alert Dennis Murphy and Paul Kittinger to have a look at these beauties. Maybe Paul will have some ideas what to do about the bass.

The only thing that comes to mind is this. When a TL is unstuffed, there is a significant ripple to the bass response that varies with the frequency. As more stuffing is added, this becomes smoother, but too much can harm the sound. That is the over-simplified explanation. Maybe you might benefit from a bit more polyfill stuffing. Paul has enough experience with TL design and building that he might recognize your problem.
Wow--I didn't think this little project would generate anything that impressive. Certainly not anything that involved so many clamps. I thought speaker cabinets were all made in a big factory in China. I don't think I'm familiar with your recording of the Crown Imperial. Do you know who the recording engineer was? Even some of the most respected engineers are guilty of boosting the response of bass drums. I know a number of my Reference Recordings of big orchestral works like the Rite of Spring are guilty of that according to a friend of mine who records the Baltimore Symphony. If it's just a few CD's, I wouldn't worry about it. If your recording of the Organ Symphony sounds natural, I doubt that it's any inherent resonance in the ER18 design. I will make sure Paul Kittinger sees this thread in case he has anything to add. Anyhow--beautiful job.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
A little background: I am a novice woodworker…
I love it when people mention that they are 'novice' woodworkers and then pull stuff like this off.
:D :D :D I had the same thought last night when I saw all these photos. But a master woodworker would have used fewer clamps :rolleyes:.

Before some keyboard commando DIY expert chimes in and says it, let me be the first to say, that in speaker building, MDF or plywood is usually used instead of hardwood cabinets. In this case, I think we should ignore common wisdom. Those inlaid dovetail joints will reduce hardwood resonances due to the use of two different types of wood ;).

Besides it appears that the hardwood is really a thick veneer over an inner MDF cabinet.
 
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