Active crossover options for Sub and Bookshelf Speakers

A

AHNube

Audiophyte
I apologize if this is long and drawn out.
The Outlaw RR2150 is the only decent stereo receiver I can find that has analog bass management (or any bass management for that matter.) This receiver is too expensive for me at $700.

I am stricken by the lack of bass management options in products in the home audio industry. Some of use don't want to blast our bookshelf speakers with bass...

The long story short, my setup currently does what I want it to do (use a single pair of RCA preouts from the sound card and allow the bookshelf speakers to be high-passed and provide signal to subwoofer.)

I was thinking about upgrading to a true integrated amplifier, power amplifier, or stereo receiver for hypothetically improved sound. If I changed my amplifier, then I would lose my ability to high-pass my bookshelf speakers since my amplifier has crossovers built in.

The holy grail would be an affordable preamp that has an adjustable or programmable low-pass filter on the subwoofer outputs and an adjustable or programmable high-pass filter on speaker outputs. I did find a preamp that had an 80Hz high-pass filter on its speaker outputs, although it was rather expensive.

My setup currently uses a CAR AUDIO amplifier to power my bookshelf speakers. This amplifier is highly convenient in that it has a pair of bypass (full-range) RCA preamp outputs as well as a pair of RCA preamp outputs with a defeatable, adjustable 18 or 24db/octave low-pass filter. This amplifier also has an adjustable, defeatable 18 or 24db/octave high-pass filter on the speaker level outputs.

The sound card has one pair of line-outs (actually, its a 7.1 card, but I only use the 2-channel front outputs with RCA connectors) and I want to cut off low frequencies to the bookshelf speakers.
I don't care if I send the subwoofer full range or not since it has an adjustable crossover one built in. However, I expect that a good active crossover would have less phase shift than the built in crossover in the subwoofer that I can defeat.

Audio Control is about the only company that seems to make products that mostly do what I want. I don't believe they have a product that allows for crossover overlap, but they do have units that provide a 24db/octave Linkwitz-Riley crossover.

As I see it, I have the following options.
1. Don't upgrade: Cheapest, but the system still does what I want it to.
2. Upgrade amplifier and just send the full range signal to my bookshelf speakers: This might be a decent option, but I think it is irresponsible to send low frequencies to drivers which do not range that low.
3. Send the sound card preouts to the subwoofer first, then use subwoofer preouts to go to amplifier: Limited to questionable quality preamp outputs built into the subwoofer. It is also limited to a fixed 80Hz high-pass filter. Note my subwoofer does not have speaker level outputs with adjustable crossover like some HSU subwoofers. Also, I would have to send a full range signal to the subwoofer for this to work and be stuck using the subwoofer's built-in crossover to low-pass the subwoofer.
4. Put capacitor in line to bookshelf speaker wire: This just seems ghetto to me...
5. Buy Outlaw RR2150 and be really broke for a long time.
6. Buy a multi-channel receiver with bass management- I am not interested in a multi-channel reciever. I only care about stereo. The non-used channels would annoy me.
7. ???
8. Buy Holy Grail product that should exist but doesn't seem to.

Ponderings of the seemingly non-existant Holy Grail product:
The Holy Grail product would be high quality active crossover and preamplifier. It would have a remote control to adjust the volume. I could use any receiver, integrated, or power amp with the Holy Grail product. The Holy Grail product would allow for crossover overlap so I can tune the speakers and subwoofer for optimal output. The Holy Grail product would be affordable enough for me to keep my kidneys.

Areas of input that could help steer a decision:
1. Car Audio amplifier vs home amplifier: My Audison LRX 2.9 car amplifier absolutely sounds superior to the Onkyo TX-8511 stereo home receiver I was formally using. The LRX 2.9 outputs 210Wrms per channel @ 4 ohm @ 0.3% THD when powered at 12 Volts. THD at 1KHz is 0.04%.
2. Preamp voltage desired to run home power amplifiers: My sound card's output voltage is 2.0Vrms. Is 2.0Vrms enough to drive power amplifiers well? I've seen preamps with 9.5Vrms.
3. Good bookshelf speaker crossover point: In my experience, some crossover overlap is ideal. My understanding is that you want some crossover overlap unless you are using a 24db/octave Linkwitz-Rily crossover which is designed to keep the overall frequency response flat. The bookshelf speakers are rated down to 49Hz, I am toying with a 55Hz to 60Hz crossover point now.

My gear:
HTPC with Onkyo SE-200pci LTD sound card
Audison LRX 2.9 CAR AUDIO stereo amplifier powered by Corsair HX-1000W PSU /w 1 Farad cap
Infinity P163 bookshelf speakers
Velodyne MiniVee 10 powered subwoofer
Blue Jeans Cable interconnects and speaker wire
Foobar media player with Kernel Streaming
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I apologize if this is long and drawn out.
The Outlaw RR2150 is the only decent stereo receiver I can find that has analog bass management (or any bass management for that matter.) This receiver is too expensive for me at $700.

I am stricken by the lack of bass management options in products in the home audio industry. Some of use don't want to blast our bookshelf speakers with bass...

The long story short, my setup currently does what I want it to do (use a single pair of RCA preouts from the sound card and allow the bookshelf speakers to be high-passed and provide signal to subwoofer.)

I was thinking about upgrading to a true integrated amplifier, power amplifier, or stereo receiver for hypothetically improved sound. If I changed my amplifier, then I would lose my ability to high-pass my bookshelf speakers since my amplifier has crossovers built in.

The holy grail would be an affordable preamp that has an adjustable or programmable low-pass filter on the subwoofer outputs and an adjustable or programmable high-pass filter on speaker outputs. I did find a preamp that had an 80Hz high-pass filter on its speaker outputs, although it was rather expensive.

My setup currently uses a CAR AUDIO amplifier to power my bookshelf speakers. This amplifier is highly convenient in that it has a pair of bypass (full-range) RCA preamp outputs as well as a pair of RCA preamp outputs with a defeatable, adjustable 18 or 24db/octave low-pass filter. This amplifier also has an adjustable, defeatable 18 or 24db/octave high-pass filter on the speaker level outputs.

The sound card has one pair of line-outs (actually, its a 7.1 card, but I only use the 2-channel front outputs with RCA connectors) and I want to cut off low frequencies to the bookshelf speakers.
I don't care if I send the subwoofer full range or not since it has an adjustable crossover one built in. However, I expect that a good active crossover would have less phase shift than the built in crossover in the subwoofer that I can defeat.

Audio Control is about the only company that seems to make products that mostly do what I want. I don't believe they have a product that allows for crossover overlap, but they do have units that provide a 24db/octave Linkwitz-Riley crossover.

As I see it, I have the following options.
1. Don't upgrade: Cheapest, but the system still does what I want it to.
2. Upgrade amplifier and just send the full range signal to my bookshelf speakers: This might be a decent option, but I think it is irresponsible to send low frequencies to drivers which do not range that low.
3. Send the sound card preouts to the subwoofer first, then use subwoofer preouts to go to amplifier: Limited to questionable quality preamp outputs built into the subwoofer. It is also limited to a fixed 80Hz high-pass filter. Note my subwoofer does not have speaker level outputs with adjustable crossover like some HSU subwoofers. Also, I would have to send a full range signal to the subwoofer for this to work and be stuck using the subwoofer's built-in crossover to low-pass the subwoofer.
4. Put capacitor in line to bookshelf speaker wire: This just seems ghetto to me...
5. Buy Outlaw RR2150 and be really broke for a long time.
6. Buy a multi-channel receiver with bass management- I am not interested in a multi-channel reciever. I only care about stereo. The non-used channels would annoy me.
7. ???
8. Buy Holy Grail product that should exist but doesn't seem to.

Ponderings of the seemingly non-existant Holy Grail product:
The Holy Grail product would be high quality active crossover and preamplifier. It would have a remote control to adjust the volume. I could use any receiver, integrated, or power amp with the Holy Grail product. The Holy Grail product would allow for crossover overlap so I can tune the speakers and subwoofer for optimal output. The Holy Grail product would be affordable enough for me to keep my kidneys.

Areas of input that could help steer a decision:
1. Car Audio amplifier vs home amplifier: My Audison LRX 2.9 car amplifier absolutely sounds superior to the Onkyo TX-8511 stereo home receiver I was formally using. The LRX 2.9 outputs 210Wrms per channel @ 4 ohm @ 0.3% THD when powered at 12 Volts. THD at 1KHz is 0.04%.
2. Preamp voltage desired to run home power amplifiers: My sound card's output voltage is 2.0Vrms. Is 2.0Vrms enough to drive power amplifiers well? I've seen preamps with 9.5Vrms.
3. Good bookshelf speaker crossover point: In my experience, some crossover overlap is ideal. My understanding is that you want some crossover overlap unless you are using a 24db/octave Linkwitz-Rily crossover which is designed to keep the overall frequency response flat. The bookshelf speakers are rated down to 49Hz, I am toying with a 55Hz to 60Hz crossover point now.

My gear:
HTPC with Onkyo SE-200pci LTD sound card
Audison LRX 2.9 CAR AUDIO stereo amplifier powered by Corsair HX-1000W PSU /w 1 Farad cap
Infinity P163 bookshelf speakers
Velodyne MiniVee 10 powered subwoofer
Blue Jeans Cable interconnects and speaker wire
Foobar media player with Kernel Streaming
Your answer is mini DSP.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I was thinking about upgrading to a true integrated amplifier, power amplifier, or stereo receiver for hypothetically improved sound.
Proper bass management would surely do some good, but if you hi-pass your bookshelfs already - the improvements would be marginal compared to investment in new speaker.
I'm not saying P163 are bad speaker - hell no, but they are tons of other (and better) options - what I'd recommend is to try bookshelf from Ascent Acoustics and see how much real improvement is there.
Secondly your room will play a large role in this and room treatment would be guaranteed better investment than a new gear.

6. Buy a multi-channel receiver with bass management- I am not interested in a multi-channel reciever. I only care about stereo. The non-used channels would annoy me.
I'm confused - This is your best bet, even if you never intend to use the avr with 11.3 channels ;) Since you don't need all the newest bells and whistles, you could find really solid older model on 2nd hand market for cheap.
I seen many times how $700 Yamahas go for $200 on CL


My gear:
HTPC with Onkyo SE-200pci LTD sound card
Audison LRX 2.9 CAR AUDIO stereo amplifier powered by Corsair HX-1000W PSU /w 1 Farad cap
Infinity P163 bookshelf speakers
Velodyne MiniVee 10 powered subwoofer
Blue Jeans Cable interconnects and speaker wire
Foobar media player with Kernel Streaming
Judging from list list - you love to tinker with equipment - you might want to consider miniDSP - it'll give you all the flexibility you would ever want

Edit: looks like TLS beat me to it :D
 
M

mloew1

Audioholic Intern
I will second the Ascent Acoustics, after much research, the folks here convinced me on the Ascent Acoustics, I could not be happier, the sound will blow you away.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
It's ascend acoustics and I fail to see the need to change speakers when the OP is satisfied already.

The minidsp wants you. And if you want you could get a sure amp from parts express that would drive those bookshelves for less than 50 bucks. You'd need a power supply, but the minidsp needs one too.

A Panasonic HE series receiver from the dark ages could fill your needs for less than 100 bucks easily. Think vintage bud.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
It's ascend acoustics and I fail to see the need to change speakers when the OP is satisfied already.
oops.
and I guess not satisfied enough if willing to buy additional gear ( I assuming improving overall SQ is OP's target )
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
oops.
and I guess not satisfied enough if willing to buy additional gear ( I assuming improving overall SQ is OP's target )
I'm not certain the ascend would be a real upgrade. It really depends on the sound OP prefers. With some modding ascends can certainly be made reference level, but unless they've changed their bracing scheme it's not anything to write home about. If anyone does have these speakers I suggest adding some cross bracing to improve overall performance.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm not certain the ascend would be a real upgrade. It really depends on the sound OP prefers. With some modding ascends can certainly be made reference level, but unless they've changed their bracing scheme it's not anything to write home about. If anyone does have these speakers I suggest adding some cross bracing to improve overall performance.
I'm curios - what makes you think they don't have sufficient bracing??
340 insides!!!! - Page 2 - Ascend Acoustics Community
 
A

AHNube

Audiophyte
Thanks for all the replies guys. I am open to any suggestion really, I certainly want to improve sound quality for music.
Firstly, the mini DSP looks great. I will certainly consider it and I plan on learning its functions to open up some possibilities. I think I pretty much have to buy the mini DSP at some point :)

The DEQX stuff looks totally badass, but is much too expensive for me. Keep in mind I can do software DSP since my source is the computer. I've been using the Electri-Q VST equalizer using Foobar which I really like. As for phase shift, time domain correction, auto-EQ or Room EQ, etc... well I haven't messed it with it yet. I figure I might be able to configure the sound card to output 2 pairs of stereo channel, apply crossover VST plugin on each channel, and then I can get my crossovers in software. I suspect it would be difficult to configure this, and even more difficult to get it to work on all the system sounds, and not just Foobar.

Considering I paid $160 for my Infinity P163 pair, I've been pretty happy with them. However, I've been checking out the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 NRT speaker. I feel it is safe to say I haven't seen a more interesting speaker pair for a long time.
Interestingly, the Sierra 1 is listed on their store as a B-stock only, and the Sierra 1 NRT doesn't appear to even be on their site. Anybody know the price or availability of the Sierra 1 NRT?

In any case, I don't have the funding for a speaker like that for a few more months.

While the Sierra 1 NRT looks to be an excellent speaker, I do question how much of an improvement the CBM-170 SE speaker would be over my existing speakers. While the CBM-170 SE is more affordable (should be under $340 per pair if getting the B-stock item), I feel like the money needed to buy the CBM-170 SE would be better put towards the Sierra 1 NRT.
I really like the idea of the Bamboo cabinets (hopefully it is a sustainable timber product) in terms of acoustic dampening. The 170 is MDF, but I suspect it is at least a little better damped than my Infinity P163s. If I plan on using these speakers for one or two decades, I might as well buy into something I'm going to love and not wonder what the extra money could have gotten me...

Thanks again guys for your suggestions.

So out of curiosity, do you guys have any predispositions against car audio amps in the house? The power supplied to it is rather clean, and the amp does sound much better than my Onkyo TX-8511 receiver. I get 210Wrms per channel @ 4 ohms @ .3% THD and roughly 260Wrms per channel @ 4 ohms @ 1% THD. There aren't any ratings at 8 ohms. Besides the cable clutter, I think its pretty nice. I have the gain all the way down or else it is uncomfortably loud.

lol, I'm surprised I haven't been flamed for having the car gear in the house ;)
 
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WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
The reason we typically don’t recommend car amps to people inquiring about them is because an adequate power supply will cost more than just buying a comparably-rated AC-powered amplifier.

For instance, the 200 watt @ 4-ohms Yamaha amp I used to have in my car had two 30-amp fuses, so it would require a 60-amp power supply for the amp to be driven to its maximum output.

In addition, the amp will only be as “clean” as its power supply (i.e. pure DC voltage free of any AC artifacts).

If you’ve managed to economically overcome these daunting obstacles, maybe you can share with us how you did it?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

AHNube

Audiophyte
The reason we typically don’t recommend car amps to people inquiring about them is because an adequate power supply will cost more than just buying a comparably-rated AC-powered amplifier.

For instance, the 200 watt @ 4-ohms Yamaha amp I used to have in my car had two 30-amp fuses, so it would require a 60-amp power supply for the amp to be driven to its maximum output.

In addition, the amp will only be as “clean” as its power supply (i.e. pure DC voltage free of any AC artifacts).

If you’ve managed to economically overcome these daunting obstacles, maybe you can share with us how you did it?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
You make good points and I agree with you.
I 'think' that the power provided to my amp is pretty clean though.
I know its kind of a crude instrument for the task, but my Fluke 77 Series II measures 0.000Vrms AC on the 12V rail. Before I removed the 120mm fan from the PSU, I was measuring notable ripple-- I don't recall but I think 0.020Vrms AC.

I am open to any comments or criticism. I am genuinely interested in how well this system works and how it compares to home receivers, power amps, and integrated amplifiers in similar power ranges.

What I did was the following:
1. Bought the Corsair HX-1000W PSU.
2. Disconnected and removed the internal 120mm fan.
3. Shorted the green wire on the ATX power connector to ground (this powers the unit on.)
4. Took all the PSU's modular cables that have 12V pins and Ground pins and soldered all the 12V wires to a piece of 4 AWG power wire and all the Ground wires to a piece of 4 AWG power wire.
5. Ran the 4 AWG power wires to a 1 Farad electrolytic capacitor.
6. Ran short (4-5") 4 AWG power wire to the amplifier from the capacitor.
7. Hooked up amplifier to speakers and RCA interconnects.

Interestingly, the PSU is actually powerful enough to fully charge the capacitor (without going into overcurrent protection (maybe undervoltage protection)) without having to charge up the capacitor to 12V first.

I wish I could give you guys some scope readings under various loads, but I don't have access to a scope.
I am always getting 0.000Vrms AC though, so that is a good sign.

I am making some loose assumptions about the setup.
1. Car audio amplifiers should have good noise rejection to cope with the noisy car environment. Even my DMM shows some nasty AC voltage with the car running.
2. Computer PSUs generally provide "fairly" clean power considering their high current output to cope with the sensitive nature of computer electronics. Hopefully the switching frequency (50 KHz to 60 KHz I would think) would be inaudible anyways.
3. Good car audio amplifiers should have robust output stages because they need to be 4ohm stable. My amplifier is rated at 450W per channel @ 2ohms @ 1% THD. This may help better drive speakers with poor impedance characteristics.
4. Keeping the power supply away from the amplifier stage should help reduce EMI/RFI. I don't know enough about amplifier internals to really make this assertion. I assume decent home amplifiers take this into consideration.
5. The massive 1 Farad capacitor I hooked up should provide at least some AC noise rejection. Admittedly, the cap's value is probably over-sized and I expect the system may perform as well or better without the cap.

My amp is $900 retail, so it better sound decent! I was able to pick it up for much less though. The power supply I purchased was over $200, so I have sunk about $550 into this amp and PSU combo. That certainly gets me into throwing range of some nice stereo receivers. In particular, I'm wondering how the Harman Kardon 3490 ($279 authorized including shipping) would sound. I could have bought two of those for the same amount of money. But then I lose my high-pass filter for the bookshelf speakers...

Lastly, I am using a Furman PM-8 Series II line conditioner on all my computer equipment. I grounded that particular AC outlet to the well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

AHNube

Audiophyte
I didn't really want to get off topic too much as I feel I already saturated this thread with too many points of discussion.

The miniDSP is on the list of things to get. Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

After doing some more reading on amplifiers, I think I'm just going to use my existing amplifier for now because it has the crossovers I want and it sounds good.

I think the first logical upgrade would be speakers. Interestingly, it seems the measurements regarding the Ascend CBM-170 favor those of the more expensive Sierra 1 as pointed out by forum member WmAx.
I can't post links yet, but the measurements for the CBM-170, Sierra 1, and P162 are available on SoundStageMagazine.com.


Because these measurements are older, does anybody have thoughts on the CBM-170 vs Sierra 1 vs Sierra 1 NRT vs Primus P163?
Earlier I stated that I didn't think that the CBM-170 would be worth the upgrade from the P163, but I am certainly having second thoughts.

Sorry about the convoluted thread...
 
A

AHNube

Audiophyte
I think I found one solution pertaining to my initial inquiry:
BEHRINGER: DCX2496

However, I think I am going to pursue something from Ascend Acoustics as suggested earlier.

Now that I know about Ascend, I'm getting upgradeitus.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I think I found one solution pertaining to my initial inquiry:
BEHRINGER: DCX2496

However, I think I am going to pursue something from Ascend Acoustics as suggested earlier.

Now that I know about Ascend, I'm getting upgradeitus.
I own a DCX, I own a MiniDSP. Get the MiniDSP.
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
For your application, that miniDSP looks trick. I actually just ordered one to play with per this thread. hehe. TLS, they should hire you as a rep. :p

dbX also offers some nice loudspeaker management systems, but I really think it gets to be overkill for what your trying to do.
 
A

AHNube

Audiophyte
UPDATE:
Thanks for all the advice, guys.
I finally went with the Outlaw RR2150. I use the Outlaw's bass management. It has simplified my setup and I really like the sound of the Outlaw over the car audio gear I had set up.
The cost was higher, but I decided that in the end, it would probably be worth it to spend the money on a good upgrade. I searched the web for days looking for bass management solutions in receivers / integrated amplifiers / power amplifiers / preamps as well as external crossover modules. It really is surprising how little stereo gear out there (that I know of) actually has a decent bass management solution. The Emotiva USP-1 pre/pro seems like a pretty good product.
If for some reason I felt I needed more control of the bass, I could get an Emotiva USP-1 or similar product and use the Main-In on the Outlaw (turning it into a power amp, essentially.)
In any case, thanks for the advice and getting me steered in the right direction.
 

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