4 ohm AVR's

[ChickenSchmidt]

I,m thankfull I found this websight. You have saved me thousands of dollars and I have not spent any money yet!!!! I think lol!!

Six weeks ago I walked into a Magnolia store looking to upgrade me living room sound system. Bose lifestyle something. Listened to the Klipsh, Martin Logan, Definitive. Went back 3 times and almost went with the Defintives 7004 with a 2000 lcr and bp2x. No sub.

I found out the living room is off limits but I could get the finished basement turned around. Now I have permission!!

I have a 32' x 15' room with a 12' x 18' L offset a the back end. The 32' wall has just drywall with a 7' high armstrong suspended ceiling. I figured about 4200 cu ft. The other wall has the offset room and a staircase up stairs.

So after 1 month of reading and reading I widlled it down to a few speakers systems. Aperion 6T-DB- XB 5.1. Axiom m-80-500 5.1. [[SVS MTS-1 5.1. comes with a PB13 ultra sub.]]

So anyway the Aperion are 6 ohms Axiom M-80,s are 4ohm, SVS 4ohm, Emotvia 4ohm,s.

My question is which AVR is capable of running the 4 ohm speakers??? Denon was my first choice but now they seem week at 4 ohms. Onkyo,s run hot don,t want that, perhaps Yamaha. Pioneer?? I want an Avr that will push these speakers at 4 ohms that I can just turn on and go. Last night I was at Emotvia site looking at UMC-1 and a UPA-7. I just don,t want to get into all that just yet. Perhaps Between $1000. and $1300

Thanks for any advice. It seems I,m back full circle to my Definitives which I really like and perhaps some Acends Sierra-1 both at 8 ohms.

 

[TLS Guy]

I,m thankfull I found this websight. You have saved me thousands of dollars and I have not spent any money yet!!!! I think lol!!

Six weeks ago I walked into a Magnolia store looking to upgrade me living room sound system. Bose lifestyle something. Listened to the Klipsh, Martin Logan, Definitive. Went back 3 times and almost went with the Defintives 7004 with a 2000 lcr and bp2x. No sub.

I found out the living room is off limits but I could get the finished basement turned around. Now I have permission!!

I have a 32' x 15' room with a 12' x 18' L offset a the back end. The 32' wall has just drywall with a 7' high armstrong suspended ceiling. I figured about 4200 cu ft. The other wall has the offset room and a staircase up stairs.

So after 1 month of reading and reading I widlled it down to a few speakers systems. Aperion 6T-DB- XB 5.1. Axiom m-80-500 5.1. [[SVS MTS-1 5.1. comes with a PB13 ultra sub.]]

So anyway the Aperion are 6 ohms Axiom M-80,s are 4ohm, SVS 4ohm, Emotvia 4ohm,s.

My question is which AVR is capable of running the 4 ohm speakers??? Denon was my first choice but now they seem week at 4 ohms. Onkyo,s run hot don,t want that, perhaps Yamaha. Pioneer?? I want an Avr that will push these speakers at 4 ohms that I can just turn on and go. Last night I was at Emotvia site looking at UMC-1 and a UPA-7. I just don,t want to get into all that just yet. Perhaps Between $1000. and $1300

Thanks for any advice. It seems I,m back full circle to my Definitives which I really like and perhaps some Acends Sierra-1 both at 8 ohms.

Don't pay attention to loudspeaker manufacturers speaker impedance specs. Most will actually be four ohms no matter what the manufacturer claims.

Now most receivers now will not blow up driving most speakers. They have to tolerate four ohm loads to be THX certified. The higher end receivers probably can drive most speakers fairly well. In the lower price ranges a 100 watt receiver, will actually only deliver about 35 watts into most typical speakers. However if the speakers are fairly sensitive that is enough.

Make sure you buy a receiver with pre outs, and then of you don't have enough power, add an amp, that can double its power output going from eight to four ohms.

 

[zumbo]

Most upper-end receivers will be fine driving a 4ohm load. I used a Yamaha 1400 at first to drive my whole 4ohm system*. It did a fine job. Later, I added a separate amp. A few years later, I wanted to upgrade to a pre-pro only. Ended-up with another Yamaha receiver. Z7. It is a fantastic receiver/pre-pro.

*Four MB Quart QLS830's and a QLS330.

 

[Jeff R.]

I drive my 4 ohm towers with my Onkyo 805 with no issues. I have had Harmon Kardon before and I would say that a high end Harmon Kardon would do very well. I would think most higher end recievers would do fine. It would be the lowe priced units that will struggle.

 

[Nomo]

Something to keep in mind:
This year's crop of receivers, for the most part, do not have the power of any of the above mentioned receivers.
The room you are looking to use is huge by most standards.
The best advice given was to get a receiver with pre-outs.
More than looking at a speaker's impedance, look at it's sensitivity. I suspect that anything below 89db will need som external amplification at higher volumes in that large space.

 

[ChickenSchmidt]

Thankyou for the responses. I was looking at the Denon 3310ci or 4310ci. Also the Onkyo TX-NR1007. The msrp is the about same but the Onkyos weight is 22 lbs more than the Denon??????? Is this in the amps or is that a missprint? Also the Onkyo has a 4ohm spec in there write up Denon doesn,t. Now that the carrot is dangling in front of me I may jump up to a Pioneer SC-25. Thanks

 

[Knucklehead90]

For well under the price of that Denon 4310 you can buy an Emotiva UPA-5 or 7 and their new preamp processor UMC-1. The UMC-1 should be available to anyone wanting one in 2 months or so - as soon as they fill their backlog orders. The UPA-7 is available now - the UPA-5 will begin shipping in a couple of weeks. All of their amps are rated for 4 ohm loads. The UPA-7 weighs 66 pounds if you are keeping track of what an AVR or amp weighs.

 

[zhimbo]

For well under the price of that Denon 4310 you can buy an Emotiva UPA-5 or 7 and their new preamp processor UMC-1. The UMC-1 should be available to anyone wanting one in 2 months or so - as soon as they fill their backlog orders. The UPA-7 is available now - the UPA-5 will begin shipping in a couple of weeks. All of their amps are rated for 4 ohm loads. The UPA-7 weighs 66 pounds if you are keeping track of what an AVR or amp weighs.

Or, get a Yamaha 665 or other reciever that has pre-outs and use the Emotiva amp with that. It makes a lot more financial sense than getting a top-of-the-line integrated reciever.

 

[ChickenSchmidt]

Thanks Knucklehead. Yea I was checking out the UMC-1 and UPA-7 last night. Think that may be a cheaper route but may miss out on some bells and whistles I won,t use!! Just in the planning stage and and don,t want to make any large mistakes. It will be a couple weeks before I can get started. Probably will need some room treatments. Lots of things to think about.

 

[njedpx3]

Get an AVR with pre-outs, then you could always add an external amp such as UPA-7 ( nice). UMC-1 is a nice pre-pro and I guess they are finally delivering after long pre-announcement delays.

The impedance varies with frequency and the ohms give is the nominal impedance. However, if you go from a nominal impedance of 8 ohms to 4 ohms you will require twice the power. Some AVRs do not handle the higher current caused by lower nominal impedance and will only run without protection tripping a low to moderate volume.

Onkyo receivers handle lower impedance speakers very well.
Pioneer doesn't seem to drive 4 ohms very well trips protect circuitry ,even the Elite line.
Most high end receivers will support 4 ohms but some will significantly reduce your headroom ,especially at higher volume settings. Loow for a AVR that specifically states it supports high current or lower ohm ( 2 or 4) speakers.


Good Luck!

Forest Man

P.S. - Def Tech awesome choice especially their CLR 2500 and CLR 3000.

 

[ringbearer3791]

i can't disagree with the suggestions to look at separate amps for the speakers but with regards to integrated receivers i've got a denon 4306 that doesn't have any trouble handling my 4 ohm snells. my receiver is a few years old though so maybe denon's not putting as beefy a power supply into their equipment now as they were then.

 

[djreef]

Get an AVR with pre-outs, then you could always add an external amp such as UPA-7 ( nice). UMC-1 is a nice pre-pro and I guess they are finally delivering after long pre-announcement delays.

The impedance varies with frequency and the ohms give is the nominal impedance. However, if you go from a nominal impedance of 8 ohms to 4 ohms you will require twice the power. Some AVRs do not handle the higher current caused by lower nominal impedance and will only run without protection tripping a low to moderate volume.

Onkyo receivers handle lower impedance speakers very well.
Pioneer doesn't seem to drive 4 ohms very well trips protect circuitry ,even the Elite line.
Most high end receivers will support 4 ohms but some will significantly reduce your headroom ,especially at higher volume settings. Loow for a AVR that specifically states it supports high current or lower ohm ( 2 or 4) speakers.


Good Luck!

Forest Man

P.S. - Def Tech awesome choice especially their CLR 2500 and CLR 3000.

Which begs the question - with so many independent US speaker manufacturers selling 4ohm bookshelf designs for HT now, why are the receiver makers currently producing such limited amp sections. I see this creating a disconnect in the industry if it continues. I'm thinking something will have to give, eventually. Maybe the Japanese are, once again, intentionally making it difficult for US manufacturers to compete using their platforms. I suspect that Japanese receivers probably have no problem pushing Japanese speakers, esp the crap ones being marketed here in the States.

I love a good conspiracy.

DJ

 

[3db]

Which begs the question - with so many independent US speaker manufacturers selling 4ohm bookshelf designs for HT now, why are the receiver makers currently producing such limited amp sections. I see this creating a disconnect in the industry if it continues. I'm thinking something will have to give, eventually. Maybe the Japanese are, once again, intentionally making it difficult for US manufacturers to compete using their platforms. I suspect that Japanese receivers probably have no problem pushing Japanese speakers, esp the crap ones being marketed here in the States.

I love a good conspiracy.

DJ

Its not as simple as just 4 ohms verses 8 ohms. There are other variables to consider such as phase angle and the frequency at which the 4 ohms starts to present itself. With a small phase angle, a 4 ohm load could be much easier to drive than a 8 ohm load with a large phase angle. Similarily, if teh 4 ohm is above the mid bass, then most quality AVRs will be able to drive a 4 ohm load. Also, if a speaker's senstivity is fairly high and the room is medium to small, then most quality AVRs can drive a 4 ohm speaker. Its more complex than just 4 verses 8 ohms

 

[njedpx3]

Its not as simple as just 4 ohms verses 8 ohms. There are other variables to consider such as phase angle and the frequency at which the 4 ohms starts to present itself. With a small phase angle, a 4 ohm load could be much easier to drive than a 8 ohm load with a large phase angle. Similarily, if teh 4 ohm is above the mid bass, then most quality AVRs will be able to drive a 4 ohm load. Also, if a speaker's senstivity is fairly high and the room is medium to small, then most quality AVRs can drive a 4 ohm speaker. Its more complex than just 4 verses 8 ohms

Just to clarify and add to. Impedance is made of two components Resistance and Capacitance/Inductance combined together in a pythagorean triangle. impedence is the vector sum of reactance ( inductance or capacitance) and resistance.

Xc = Capacitve Reactance= -1/(2 * Pi * f * C) so C reactance diminishes as the frequency increases. It lags in phase.

Xl = Inductive Reactance = 2 * Pi *f * L so L reactance increases with frequency
It leads phase.

Impedance = Z = sqrt ( R^2 + (Xl-Xc)^2 )

Resonance is the condition that occurs when the inductive
reactance and capacitive reactance in a circuit are equal.
When this happens, the two reactances cancel each other,
leaving the circuit with no impedance except for whatever dc
resistance exists in the circuit. Thus, very large currents are
possible in resonant circuits.

The entire concept of phase angle changes with frequency and the highest current occurs at resonant frequency. Fr = 1/(2*Pi* Sqrt(LC) ).

Phase angle and frequency are directly related.


Good Luck!

Forest Man

 

[3db]

Just to clarify and add to. Impedance is made of two components Resistance and Capacitance/Inductance combined together in a pythagorean triangle. impedence is the vector sum of reactance ( inductance or capacitance) and resistance.

Xc = Capacitve Reactance= -1/(2 * Pi * f * C) so C reactance diminishes as the frequency increases. It lags in phase.

Xl = Inductive Reactance = 2 * Pi *f * L so L reactance increases with frequency
It leads phase.

Impedance = Z = sqrt ( R^2 + (Xl-Xc)^2 )

Resonance is the condition that occurs when the inductive
reactance and capacitive reactance in a circuit are equal.
When this happens, the two reactances cancel each other,
leaving the circuit with no impedance except for whatever dc
resistance exists in the circuit. Thus, very large currents are
possible in resonant circuits.

The entire concept of phase angle changes with frequency and the highest current occurs at resonant frequency. Fr = 1/(2*Pi* Sqrt(LC) ).

Phase angle and frequency are directly related.


Good Luck!

Forest Man

Thx.. I'm keeping it simple and trying to avoid the math. I'm an electrical engineer .

It depends wether or not its a series or paralle configuration if I remember correctly. I think your specifying a series circuit.

 

[lsiberian]

Something to keep in mind:
This year's crop of receivers, for the most part, do not have the power of any of the above mentioned receivers.
The room you are looking to use is huge by most standards.
The best advice given was to get a receiver with pre-outs.
More than looking at a speaker's impedance, look at it's sensitivity. I suspect that anything below 89db will need som external amplification at higher volumes in that large space.

I've not seen any recent measurements of new receivers. Probably the latest popular one was the Onkyo 606 which put 74 watts into 7 channel at 1% distortion for an 8 ohm load according the ultimateavmag.com review.

Sadly there isn't a single source that's measuring receivers these days. We want to make sure the speakers you get can handle the power before we go getting all amp crazy. I suggest you select your speakers first then we worry about getting the best receiver.

 

[ChickenSchmidt]

Big learning curve here. Thanks for the input. Went back up and listened to the Def Tec 7004,s again today. That,s 4 times. They sound good to me. Little high in price. Like the looks of the Aperions 6T-db-hb-xd but haven,t heard them. Has anyone listened to them or have an opinion on them??
Here is what I,m doing. I sold my pool table and a pool cue. I have 5k to spend on speakers and AVR or maybe Emotvia UMC-1 UPA-7. Not sure I can wait for the Emotvia. Thats my budget but it,s a little flexible. I,ll have to sneak a blue ray in there also but Santa is around the corner. So I was thinking of buying the whole 5.1 system because of the slight discount and every thing matches.
All of this will probably change before I go on Tilt!!!!!!

 

[Nomo]

I've not seen any recent measurements of new receivers. Probably the latest popular one was the Onkyo 606 which put 74 watts into 7 channel at 1% distortion for an 8 ohm load according the ultimateavmag.com review.

Sadly there isn't a single source that's measuring receivers these days. We want to make sure the speakers you get can handle the power before we go getting all amp crazy. I suggest you select your speakers first then we worry about getting the best receiver.

Granted this was bit of an off the cuff remark by me about the power drop in this year's models but many of the models, Yamaha especially, have lost considerable weight.
The only possible conclusion to me is a drop in power as well, But I have yet to see any bench tests done to prove me right or wrong.

 

[njedpx3]

Big learning curve here. Thanks for the input. Went back up and listened to the Def Tec 7004,s again today. That,s 4 times. They sound good to me. Little high in price. Like the looks of the Aperions 6T-db-hb-xd but haven,t heard them. Has anyone listened to them or have an opinion on them??
Here is what I,m doing. I sold my pool table and a pool cue. I have 5k to spend on speakers and AVR or maybe Emotvia UMC-1 UPA-7. Not sure I can wait for the Emotvia. Thats my budget but it,s a little flexible. I,ll have to sneak a blue ray in there also but Santa is around the corner. So I was thinking of buying the whole 5.1 system because of the slight discount and every thing matches.
All of this will probably change before I go on Tilt!!!!!!

ChickenSchmidt,

Okay I will admit up front, I am a Def Tech fan boy.

But the 7004s with a CLR 2500 center would be awesome. This is where I would spend 1/2 to 2/3s of your budget.

Remember, surrounds and presense speakers are secondary you main thrust and sound quality is from your Fronts and Center. The also don't have to match. Fronts and Center need to match to maintain timbre ( seamless front sound). You could always add surrounds later.

Next item is a good sub, my favorite brand is SVS. Hsu is also good.

The Emotiva UMC-1 and UPA-7 are very nice but don't discount looking at a good higher end Marantz. Denon or Onkyo receiver.


Good Luck ! - 5k is nice budget

Forest Man

P.S.- I was just getting ready to challenge you to a pool match

 

[lsiberian]

Granted this was bit of an off the cuff remark by me about the power drop in this year's models but many of the models, Yamaha especially, have lost considerable weight.
The only possible conclusion to me is a drop in power as well, But I have yet to see any bench tests done to prove me right or wrong.

They dropped before this year actually and there ratings are usually overinflated in recent years. They make awesome power amps and even nice PA speakers, but the recent crop of receivers are disappointing.

HK is probably your best budget receiver for power, but HDMI did a number on their receivers. If they'd done a better standard HK might be the leader in the industry, but the handshake issues make me want to cry at times.

Onkyo receivers run warm in temperature and I've heard about some bad soldering in their recent receivers too. A side effect of lead being banned. Because someone might eat their receiver.

I think my next receiver if I ever buy another one. Will be a Denon or Marantz. I've not heard a lot of negative stuff about their offerings. The official threads tend to be short.

I'd suggest you look at those 2 brands at this point.