3 identical fronts or dedicated CC?

[saeyedoc]

I've been looking at replacing my aging Vandersteen 2Cs. I'm stuck with a plasma screen over a fireplace and currently have a Vienna Waltz Grand on the mantle as a CC.
I've been considering getting 3 identical speakers, putting the CC in front of the rarely used fireplace, considering standmounts. I'm getting some resistance from my wife.
My budget is up to about $2500/speaker.
I've been considering Selah Tempesta or Tempesta Extreme, several Salk models, Vapor Cirrus.
Ran across a great deal on the TAD inspired Pioneer EX series. I can get the S-2EX for about $5k/pr including the stands, MSRP is $8500. They won't sell me a single S-2EX for the center, but they do have the S-7EX which I can get for about $3k including the stand. It would be about 21-22" high on the stand. I know it's better to have 3 of the same, but given the concentric tweeter/mid on these speakers, the vertical dispersion should be excellent and I wonder if it would sound just as good, if not better since the CC has 2 woofers while the S2s have one. I think it will also look less imposing that way.

Opinions?

 

[DS-21]

Can you get three of the Pioneer EX centers? Or afford to buy four of the bookshelves and just use three?

If not, I would prefer three identical flawed speakers over three better speakers that are not identical. (And I find the other speakers you are considering flawed, because they have abrupt shifts in midrange directivity when the tweeter comes in.)

 

[sholling]

I've been looking at replacing my aging Vandersteen 2Cs. I'm stuck with a plasma screen over a fireplace and currently have a Vienna Waltz Grand on the mantle as a CC.
I've been considering getting 3 identical speakers, putting the CC in front of the rarely used fireplace, considering standmounts. I'm getting some resistance from my wife.
My budget is up to about $2500/speaker.
I've been considering Selah Tempesta or Tempesta Extreme, several Salk models, Vapor Cirrus.
Ran across a great deal on the TAD inspired Pioneer EX series. I can get the S-2EX for about $5k/pr including the stands, MSRP is $8500. They won't sell me a single S-2EX for the center, but they do have the S-7EX which I can get for about $3k including the stand. It would be about 21-22" high on the stand. I know it's better to have 3 of the same, but given the concentric tweeter/mid on these speakers, the vertical dispersion should be excellent and I wonder if it would sound just as good, if not better since the CC has 2 woofers while the S2s have one. I think it will also look less imposing that way.

Opinions?

I think it comes down to how much room you have and the WAF. Three identical speakers will be an exact audio match while a good well matched center will be a darn near identical match. Most who complain about even the best dedicated centers do so because of off axis seating or theoretical issues that are their personal obsession.

 

[saeyedoc]

Can you get three of the Pioneer EX centers? Or afford to buy four of the bookshelves and just use three?

If not, I would prefer three identical flawed speakers over three better speakers that are not identical. (And I find the other speakers you are considering flawed, because they have abrupt shifts in midrange directivity when the tweeter comes in.)

3 Centers would look completely ridiculous, they're almost 3 feet wide and the top is only 21" from the ground.
Although it wouldn't prevent me from paying my mortgage, I'm not about to blow over $2500 on an extra speaker that I'll never use.
You stated my other choices are all flawed, what would you suggest?

 

[Nuance AH]

3 Centers would look completely ridiculous, they're almost 3 feet wide and the top is only 21" from the ground.
Although it wouldn't prevent me from paying my mortgage, I'm not about to blow over $2500 on an extra speaker that I'll never use.
You stated my other choices are all flawed, what would you suggest?

He thinks everything is flawed that he doesn't like, and all without actually hearing them. Don't pay any attention to him.

You've been a busy man, saeyedoc, here and over at AVS. Here's to you making a decision soon and sticking to it. Cheers!

 

[saeyedoc]

He thinks everything is flawed that he doesn't like, and all without actually hearing them. Don't pay any attention to him.

You've been a busy man, saeyedoc, here and over at AVS. Here's to you making a decision soon and sticking to it. Cheers!

Yeah, busy driving myself nuts. I'm also on AC and audiogon, did I miss somewhere?
I thought I had my wife bought into the idea of the CC same as the others, but she gave me a crazy look when I mentioned it again last night.
I don't think I could deal with 6+ month waits for some speakers, I'd change my mind too many times while waiting, or even worse something new would come out.
I take a long time to make decisions like this, but I'm very loyal to whatever I get.

 

[jonnythan]

First step should be to get rid of the fireplace.

 

[saeyedoc]

First step should be to get rid of the fireplace.

I wish. Who needs one in S. Texas anyway? Apparently people won't buy a home without one here, although it only gets cold enough to use it 3 or 4 days a year. It just messes with my HT setup, I hate it!

 

[jonnythan]

That's what I'm saying! Rip it out and wall it up.

 

[Nuance AH]

Yeah, busy driving myself nuts. I'm also on AC and audiogon, did I miss somewhere?

Haha, maybe, I don't know. There are way too many forums out there, and each differs from the other. For example, if you go to AVS the subjectivists will all gang up on the objectivists; come here and the objectivists write off the subjective experience; go to Audio Circle and they'll try to talk you into $5000 speaker cables and $7500 power conditioners (don't forget to use those $2000 power cables, by the way). I'm not saying any of those methodologies is wrong, because if it makes you happy then go with whatever method suits you, but it's funny how they differ.

I thought I had my wife bought into the idea of the CC same as the others, but she gave me a crazy look when I mentioned it again last night.
I don't think I could deal with 6+ month waits for some speakers, I'd change my mind too many times while waiting, or even worse something new would come out.
I take a long time to make decisions like this, but I'm very loyal to whatever I get.

Who takes six months to build speakers? I can't think of anyone that would take that long unless you placed a custom order, or unless you order from WmAx or whatever his name was, in which case you'll never receive you speakers (poor Randy; and it happened to such a good guy).

Are you able to listen to any of your top contenders? I thought you were looking at the JBL's Harman uses in their reference room?

 

[its phillip]

I wish. Who needs one in S. Texas anyway? Apparently people won't buy a home without one here, although it only gets cold enough to use it 3 or 4 days a year. It just messes with my HT setup, I hate it!

I've never used mine either. I wish it wasn't there

 

[Nuance AH]

I live in SE Wisconsin and I don't have a fireplace. You guys want to trade homes? Or maybe I should just move to Texas like I've always wanted to.

 

[its phillip]

Texas is pretty nice imo

 

[saeyedoc]

Haha, maybe, I don't know. There are way too many forums out there, and each differs from the other. For example, if you go to AVS the subjectivists will all gang up on the objectivists; come here and the objectivists write off the subjective experience; go to Audio Circle and they'll try to talk you into $5000 speaker cables and $7500 power conditioners (don't forget to use those $2000 power cables, by the way). I'm not saying any of those methodologies is wrong, because if it makes you happy then go with whatever method suits you, but it's funny how they differ.




Who takes six months to build speakers? I can't think of anyone that would take that long unless you placed a custom order, or unless you order from WmAx or whatever his name was, in which case you'll never receive you speakers (poor Randy; and it happened to such a good guy).

Are you able to listen to any of your top contenders? I thought you were looking at the JBL's Harman uses in their reference room?

Hah, I jumped into a thread on AC the other day about the point of diminishing returns, kept getting the try the cable line. Some moron over there rewired his whole house to get better sound.
That wasn't me looking at the Harmons.
I've been looking at the Vapor Cirrus, it's taking them forever to get speakers out, but they are great looking. Some Salks have taken a long time as well.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to listen to anything. I almost flew up to Dallas for LSAF to hear the Vapor, but they no-showed anyway.

 

[cschang]

I live in SE Wisconsin and I don't have a fireplace. You guys want to trade homes? Or maybe I should just move to Texas like I've always wanted to.

All the homes I have been in with fireplaces, that same area is/was the best place to have an A/V system. I'd rather have the A/V system.

Then in many cases, people mount their TVs above the fireplace. While I realize some do not have a better choice, it is not very good from an ergonomics standpoint.

 

[DS-21]

I think it comes down to how much room you have and the WAF. Three identical speakers will be an exact audio match while a good well matched center will be a darn near identical match. Most who complain about even the best dedicated centers do so because of off axis seating or theoretical issues that are their personal obsession.

Perhaps for movies. Movie sound isn't that important, anyway: one has a moving picture to distract the senses from discontinuities in the soundstage.

But for multichannel music, whole different ballgame. The difference between non-identical front speakers is glaringly obvious.

3 Centers would look completely ridiculous, they're almost 3 feet wide and the top is only 21" from the ground.

Then raise them higher, if you want to go that route.

You stated my other choices are all flawed, what would you suggest?

Three identical speakers with controlled midrange directivity, sufficient efficiency to reach the levels you want without much power, and that you can stand to look at.

 

[saeyedoc]

Then raise them higher, if you want to go that route.



Three identical speakers with controlled midrange directivity, sufficient efficiency to reach the levels you want without much power, and that you can stand to look at.

Why would I want three center speakers raised up high, although that setup would be so wide it would be like a wall of sound! Seriously, vertical driver orientation is better in the vast majority of speakers, so 3 centers not a great idea, although at least I could get 3 of those.

Do you have some examples in mind of efficient, decent looking speakers that have controlled midrange directivity?

 

[GranteedEV]

Are you able to listen to any of your top contenders? I thought you were looking at the JBL's Harman uses in their reference room?

Definitely can't go wrong with those! Efficient, controlled midrange directivity, very low distortion, ruler flat frequency response, can be turned on its side without affect the off-axis response as a center channel (because the Mid/tweeter stay vertical and the woofer crossover frequency is very low) and very good drivers are used too. It also has 1db tweeter and bass level switches to fine tune the sound after placement/room. I know the RAAL in the selah, salk stuff is really appealing, but I wouldn't personally trade mids for upper treble. The only speakers i've seen that do the RAAL the way I'd want it, are the ones with acoustically small mids - Salk SS8, Salk SS12, Philharmonic. Just having a RAAL does not IMO justify getting flawed speakers.

As far as the Pioneer S2-EX, all it's got is a single 6.5 inch woofer. I feel like I say this all the time, but just adding a sub won't solve the issue of dynamics, in that upper bass and lower midrange area.

 

[DS-21]

Why would I want three center speakers raised up high, although that setup would be so wide it would be like a wall of sound!

Actually, my experience is that it works quite well. Better, in fact than having the center on-axis, because most coincident and dual concentric drivers have a treble notch that, while usually not audible, occasionally is. My best-sounding system to date had the front three speakers with their 12" Dual Concentric drivers centered maybe 50-55" off the ground.

Seriously, vertical driver orientation is better in the vast majority of speakers, so 3 centers not a great idea, although at least I could get 3 of those.

What makes you so sure that vertical is better? Better is better. With a coincident or Dual Concentric driver covering the lower mids through treble (or a tweeter with controlled directivity crossed over to a suitably-sized vertically-oriented midrange so as to maintain a consistent horizontal pattern) there are some differences between vertical and horizontal woofer deployment in terms of diffraction. Whether one is better or the other really depends on how well the cabinet design reduces diffraction.

Do you have some examples in mind of efficient, decent looking speakers that have controlled midrange directivity?

Depends on your room. What are the side-walls made of? What about the floor/ceiling? I'm not a romantic about speakers. They're just tools to get to the music. You should IMO pick your midrange coverage angle based on your room and your preferences as to spaciousness vs. image specificity. A more absorptive room may do better with a speaker that has wider coverage, whereas a room with, say, a right wall made out of glass will likely favor a narrower-coverage speaker. And then, of course, is the issue of appearance.

That said, except for one pair of NHT's, based on the above-stated criteria every speaker I've personally purchased in the last decade or so has been from KEF or Tannoy. Those two firms wouldn't be a bad place to start. The JBL LSR32/LSR6332's are also fantastic speakers if your room isn't too reflective (they throw a fairly wide pattern in the midrange). The GedLee Nathan is also in your budget in completed form, at $6000 plus shipping for three. So perhaps you should contact Dr. Geddes and fly over for an audition to see if that speaker is a good fit for your tastes. (I'd be squeamish about spending that much money without hearing any speaker first, but I'm old fashioned that way.) The new Revel Performa line may also have something that fits your tastes. For that matter, the old Revel F52 might be a speaker to seek out for an audition. And there's AJ's Soundfield Audio speakers with the 12" coaxial and cardoid bass section. I don't know if three of them will fit within your budget, but they might. AJ also looks to have an HE Monitor that uses a Tannoy Dual Concentric driver (looks like an 8" unit - the "Tulip" phase plug marks the driver as a Tannoy) on top, and a helper (presumably powered) woofer. Ask him how much those will run you.

 

[saeyedoc]

Depends on your room. What are the side-walls made of? What about the floor/ceiling? .

The left side is mostly glass, the right is mostly open to another room. Floors are hardwood, ceilings drywall I guess.
Here are some pics. For reference, the plasma is 50". The room is about 25x23.