3.1 Set up for $4000

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do have a center channel similar to the Salk center.

Dennis,

What about a Philharmonic 1, 2, & 3 bookshelf speaker?

 

[GranteedEV]

Dennis,

What about a Philharmonic 1, 2, & 3 bookshelf speaker?

That would be like, 20 inches tall

 

[Ironman129]

The Salk & Philharmonics are direct internet, so you won't get any discounts.
As Grant stated, the Salks and Philharmonics would probably cost twice as much if they were sold at dealers.

With being internet direct, is there any way to audition these speakers? Does anyone know of a place in San Diego that I can audition the Synchrony Ones? I know if a place that has Paradigm, but they don't have Synchrony.

The only criteria you have given is 4k. That is a helpful starting point but what about other parameters? Like do you have any speaker size preference? And how big is the room that you plan to put these in?

You said 50% movies? Then a sub woofer might be what you need. There is the Velodyne DLS-4000R which I auditioned a few months ago seemed pretty good I think you can pick one up for less than $500. As for speakers, I can give some general suggestions. I would personally avoid floorstanding speakers that have a big subwoofer built in (usually at the bottom). Look into floorstanding speakers that have 6 1/2" drivers preferably three drivers if your room is big but minimum two.

How about Polk Audio's RTi A9 package? I have personally never audition them though.

The room is about 12' by 17'. Originally I was thinking of having a smaller speaker, like a bookshelf style, but through the thread I've started to lean towards the floorstanding. I am planning to add atleast one sub to the mix possibly 2, but out of curiosity, why would you stay away from the floorstanding speakers?

Dennis,

What about a Philharmonic 1, 2, & 3 bookshelf speaker?

I know nothing about speaker making, but i was wondering since the Philharmonic 3s basically have a seperate enclosure for the 8"woofer, is it possible to just get the top and use that as surrounds?

 

[GranteedEV]

With being internet direct, is there any way to audition these speakers?

Owners of these brands will likely welcome you to their homes for a listen. The Phils are a newer company, so it might not be as easy. There is a thread on audiocircle:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=20721.100

Where you can find someone nearby to audition Salks.

As swerd said, having the same designer, the Phils will have a strong family resemblance to most of the Veracity and Song series Salks and give you an idea of what to expect.

I am planning to add atleast one sub to the mix possibly 2, but out of curiosity, why would you stay away from the floorstanding speakers?

A superior setup will definitely have multiple (two to four) subwoofers for best bass reproduction across multiple seats.

You misread what he said:

I would personally avoid floorstanding speakers that have a big subwoofer built in (usually at the bottom).

These "subwoofers" are rarely well integrated and often poorly tuned. That said, there's some speakers that do use a separate, powered woofer that do interest me, but I understand where he's coming from.

I know nothing about speaker making, but i was wondering since the Philharmonic 3s basically have a seperate enclosure for the 8"woofer, is it possible to just get the top and use that as surrounds?

That 8" woofer covers the range from about 25hz to around 700hz.

A surround should cover at least from 100hz to 15khz

So you'd be missing just under 3 full octaves of surround information if you just "get the top"

A woofer is not a subwoofer. A subwoofer only covers bass. A woofer or midwoofer, will be covering much of the lower midrange and upper bass as well.

 

[gpost3]

Yes my suggestion to avoid floor-standing speakers was only for those floorstanders with built-in subwoofer or a very large driver (above 8 inch). I didn't mean to say to avoid all floorstanding speakers.

On top of what GranteedEV said. Another issue with them is that the subwoofer isn't tuned below 80Hz (which is the point where sound becomes omnidirectional meaning you can't pinpoint where its origin is). Those subwoofer handle much higher bass frequencies including midbass (110 Hz to 140 Hz) and that is not the sound you want from a "subwoofer". That's what midbass 6 1/2 drivers are for. But granted some 6 1/2 are good as subwoofers too. Which is why 6 1/2 is my favourite speaker size.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Does anyone know of a place in San Diego that I can audition the Synchrony Ones?

The PSB Synchrony One retail for $5,000/pr.

But I would not pay more than $3,500/pr brand new via authorized dealer.

If you are interested, PM me.

I believe the Synchrony One are great speakers.

But still, I would personally prefer the Philharmonic 3s @ $2,800/pr. Just a personal preference.

Makes me feel like buying a pair just talking about it!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That would be like, 20 inches tall

DOH!

My KEF 201/2 bookshelfs are > 16 in tall.

20" tall would be, hmm, yeah, big.

 

[GranteedEV]

Yes my suggestion to avoid floor-standing speakers was only for those floorstanders with built-in subwoofer or a very large driver (above 8 inch). I didn't mean to say to avoid all floorstanding speakers.

I don't agree with this. The tradeoff with a large driver is simply that it needs intricate design and a very well built enclosure. There's some sweet speakers that use 10", 12", and even 15" woofers:

http://gedlee.com/summa_.htm
http://www.selahaudio.com/id185.html
http://www.grande-utopia-em.com/
http://www.salksound.com/soundscape 12 home.htm
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/TAD+Speakers/Reference+One
http://www.genelec.com/products/3-way-monitors/8260a/
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3044980
http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_planetarium-beta.html
http://www.rbhsound.com/images/products/sxt3_ng.jpg

The common theme is only that they're really expensive - but so is a high end speaker with three 8" bass drivers

Another issue with them is that the subwoofer isn't tuned below 80Hz (which is the point where sound becomes omnidirectional meaning you can't pinpoint where its origin is). Those subwoofer handle much higher bass frequencies including midbass (110 Hz to 140 Hz) and that is not the sound you want from a "subwoofer".

That's not an issue. A (sub)woofer on a tower speaker might be localizable, but that's not a problem because it's only being localized as part of the speaker. If the integration is good, it's A-OK. It's just that a lot of the time, the integration of the powered sub driver ends up being sub-par.

That's what midbass 6 1/2 drivers are for. But granted some 6 1/2 are good as subwoofers too.

It would take like three high end 6.5" drivers, to likely match a single high end 12" bass driver in the 30hz to 300hz region. One will have a slimmer enclosure, but that's really the only thing you gain.

I've never seen a 6.5" driver that's as "good as a subwoofer too".

 

[gpost3]

It would take like three high end 6.5" driver , to likely match...

What do you mean by match? That is over-simplified view unfortunately. Three 6.5" with same composite construction will any day and time respond much faster than their single 12" counterparts. The area of a circle is given by 2 * pie * r. 2*3.1415*12 = 75" vs 2*3.1415*6.5=40.83*2=81.66 so FYI, you only need two 6.5" to match a single 12" surface area so I am not sure where you got "three" from.

I've never seen a 6.5" driver that's as "good as a subwoofer too".

Then I am guessing you have never auditioned the Energy ESW-M6
http://www.retrevo.com/s/Energy-ESW-M6-Subwoofers-review-manual/id/23302ag925/t/1-2/
Driver size has nothing to do with speaker's low frequency extension - it is their F3 and Fs.

I don't agree with this. The tradeoff with a large driver is simply that it needs intricate design and a very well built enclosure. There's some sweet speakers that use 10", 12", and even 15" woofers:

In addition to price, there is another common theme between all those speakers you listed which is the use of a separate moderately sized midbass driver. I was referring more to speakers like these:

http://www.usedottawa.com/classified-ad/Kenwood-floorstanding-speakers--free-center-channel-speaker_15553920

Out of all the speakers you listed, you have never owned one so you don't actually know how they sound like or if you will like them or not. My take on low frequency is that I want < 80Hz to come out of a subwoofer because I can then find proper placement for the subwoofer box to get good punchy omnidirectional bass whereas speakers must sit infront of you. But I like this type of setup only for movies not for music. So then I agree some with you that getting all your low frequency bass from speakers themselves is better (sure I take that for music) but then I disagree some with you.

 

[Ironman129]

The PSB Synchrony One retail for $5,000/pr.

But I would not pay more than $3,500/pr brand new via authorized dealer.

If you are interested, PM me.

I believe the Synchrony One are great speakers.

But still, I would personally prefer the Philharmonic 3s @ $2,800/pr. Just a personal preference.

Makes me feel like buying a pair just talking about it!

So if price wasn't an issue it sounds like your preference would be Phil>Shyncrony>S6s. I've seen some places online that I could the Synchrony or Patadigm for about $3500 which would still allow me about $750 for a sub. Right now I am leaning on S6s>Synchrony>Phillies mainly because i have heard the S6s and love them. Also I've read that the Synchronies need to be between 2-4' away from the wall to sound best and the Phils also have a very deep cabinet. Not a deal breaker, I just need to listen to them to get an idea of the difference.

You misread what he said:



These "subwoofers" are rarely well integrated and often poorly tuned. That said, there's some speakers that do use a separate, powered woofer that do interest me, but I understand where he's coming from.

Thanks for the clearification, I did misunderstand

That 8" woofer covers the range from about 25hz to around 700hz.

A surround should cover at least from 100hz to 15khz

So you'd be missing just under 3 full octaves of surround information if you just "get the top"

A woofer is not a subwoofer. A subwoofer only covers bass. A woofer or midwoofer, will be covering much of the lower midrange and upper bass as well.

I figured it wouldn't be that easy!

 

[GranteedEV]

you only need two 6.5" to match a single 12" surface area so I am not sure where you got "three" from.

Unfortunately it's not as easy as "area of a circle". A speaker cone is not a circle, it's a cone. Its surface area sd is the part of the cone that contacts the air around it and creates sound. The larger you go in "cone inches" the deeper the cone also tends to get.

Here is a 6.5" driver:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb17nrxc35-4-6.5-woofer/


Effective piston area = 118 cm^2
xmax = 5.5mm

Here is its 12" sibling woofer

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-12-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb34nrx75-6-12-woofer/

sd = 508 cm^2
Xmax = 11mm


So just looking at these two drivers, both from the same "line", we see that not only does this 12" woofer have over four times the effective piston area, it has double the linear excursion. In this case, never mind three; we would need EIGHT of the 6.5" woofers to match the volume displacement of the one 12" driver. That doesn't even factor in the low frequency efficiency of the lighter 6.5" driver, which means it'll need more EQ boost, even with eight of them.

Three 6.5" with same composite construction will any day and time respond much faster than their single 12" counterparts.

Really? Care to elaborate on the physics behind this that you know so much about?

Then I am guessing you have never auditioned the Energy ESW-M6
http://www.retrevo.com/s/Energy-ESW-M6-Subwoofers-review-manual/id/23302ag925/t/1-2/
Driver size has nothing to do with speaker's low frequency extension - it is their F3 and Fs.

Um, you do realize F3 can be manipulated electrically, and fs is meaningless once inside a box, right? I am starting to see why you don't have any green chiklets though. Next you'll be telling me that if the F3 and Fs of a 1" tweeter suffice, it can be used an even "faster" subwoofer

In addition to price, there is another common theme between all those speakers you listed which is the use of a separate moderately sized midbass driver. I was referring more to speakers like these:

http://www.usedottawa.com/classified-ad/Kenwood-floorstanding-speakers--free-center-channel-speaker_15553920

the Salk has a 4.5" """ midbass""" driver. The Genelec a 5.25" ""midbass"" driver. the Audiokinesis and Gedlee has a 1" ""midbass"" driver.

Rriiiiggghtt.

My take on low frequency is that I want < 80Hz to come out of a subwoofer because I can then find proper placement for the subwoofer box to get good punchy omnidirectional bass whereas speakers must sit infront of you.

You do realize that when you have two source of bass (IE a pair of stereo speakers) you're going to have a smoother in-room response than if you have one source of bass (a single subwoofer)... right?

And you do realize that no one here said anything against also getting multiple separate subwoofers... right?

 

[GranteedEV]

Right now I am leaning on S6s>Synchrony>Phillies mainly because i have heard the S6s and love them.

Paradigm speakers are really good... at impressing on the showroom floor with the right demo material. But Salk / PSB / Philharmonic will be much more accurate, neutral sounding speakers that will never tire you out or give "Fake" detail.

Also I've read that the Synchronies need to be between 2-4' away from the wall to sound best

Just about any speaker will sound its best farther away from the wall than next to it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am leaning on S6s>Synchrony>Phillies

Whichever sound the best to you is the right choice.

Everyone is different.

Based on all the speakers I've auditioned and owned, if you were to offer me any of those 3 speakers for FREE, I would pick the Philharmonic 3 in a heartbeat.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is the Paradigm S8:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/

On-axis FR looks flat.

And even @ 60 degrees horizontal off-axis, it appears to be only -6db down from 50Hz - 20kHz.

Wouldn't you say the Paradigm S8 is a very accurate speaker since it has a flat on-axis and pretty smooth and flat off-axis FR?

 

[GranteedEV]

Here is the Paradigm S8:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/

On-axis FR looks flat.

And even @ 60 degrees horizontal off-axis, it appears to be only -6db down from 50Hz - 20kHz.

Wouldn't you say the Paradigm S8 is a very accurate speaker since it has a flat on-axis and pretty smooth and flat off-axis FR?

Hmm.. based on those measurements alone, it looks like it is a pretty accurate speaker unlike other paradigms. That's surprising.

It looks pretty good, although for the $9k price tag, it's not perfect; with a slight broad power response peak around 3 to 8khz that might make it edge closer towards "bright" or "forward" than "neutral" in a reverberant space. The bass looks a good bit better tuned than other paradigm speakers for sure, at least, although you can still see a bit of broad 2db bump near 200hz...the off axis response of the S8:

compared to the competing Revel Studios:

both have a slight bump near 200hz, probably caused by the higher DCR of the large air core inductors used. The revels are more neutral measuring, except for the very narrow off axis peak and dip at around 1.3khz to 2khz

 

[Ironman129]

Paradigm speakers are really good... at impressing on the showroom floor with the right demo material. But Salk / PSB / Philharmonic will be much more accurate, neutral sounding speakers that will never tire you out or give "Fake" detail.

I appreciate everyones patience and answering my questions. I know I just need to find a place here in San Diego to listen to them. Is it that the Salks and Phillies just reproduce a more accurate and nuetral sound, and that has been shown in measurements, or is that more personal experience?

There was a recent review of the Paradigm S6v.3 that was quite impressive where the reviewer had the original version of the S8s and said that the S6s "The S6 v.3s indeed had a similar familial sound, but the new speakers sounded better -- a lot better." Full review here.

Now I've been tricked before with biased reviews and no idea if this one is biased or not. The tests for the S8s seemd pretty accurate though.

 

[Ironman129]

BTW my plan is to use the Emotiva XPA-5 to power the front 3 which would give the availibility to bi-amp the fronts at least until I got surrounds. I know both the paradigms and Philharmonics can demand a lot of power, but I believe this would satisfy.

 

[GranteedEV]

BTW my plan is to use the Emotiva XPA-5 to power the front 3 which would give the availibility to bi-amp the fronts at least until I got surrounds. I know both the paradigms and Philharmonics can demand a lot of power, but I believe this would satisfy.

Bi-amping is nonsense, unless your speakers use an external, active crossover or your speakers have two 3 ohm woofers in parallel or something. You're better off getting more raw wattage IE an XPA-2 than to bi-amp.

I appreciate everyones patience and answering my questions. I know I just need to find a place here in San Diego to listen to them. Is it that the Salks and Phillies just reproduce a more accurate and nuetral sound, and that has been shown in measurements, or is that more personal experience?

I can't really comment on the paradigm signatures beyond what I discussed about the measurements above, but the Studios and Monitors are IMO not very accurate speakers, subjectively r objectively. I do know warpdrv owns Paradigm Signature and Salk speakers, so maybe he can enlighten you with his (subjectiv:e) view.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75795

 

[zieglj01]

I appreciate everyones patience and answering my questions. I know I just need to find a place here in San Diego to listen to them. Is it that the Salks and Phillies just reproduce a more accurate and nuetral sound, and that has been shown in measurements, or is that more personal experience?
QUOTE]

Listening/audition, is the way to base your decision - buy what sounds
best to you, and what you think and feel, will bring lots of enjoyment for
a long time. All I can say is that Dennis works, untill he gets everything
that he can get, out of a speaker. Good Luck!

 

[gpost3]

The weight of each composite on a 6.5" speaker will be lesser compared to 12" counterpart. It is very well known that a smaller speaker with identical composite will retract faster than a bigger one due to savings in weight. That's the physics behind it. If you put three 6.5" speakers, each one will still respond faster than a single 12" which will result in a better sound. But common sense is to be used here. Don't take it to extremism ofcourse 1" tweeter cannnot be used because they don't respond to lower frequency at all and the reason for that is because their XMax is severely limited to move any reasonable amount of air molecules. Hope that adds to the clarification.