2nd Receiver / Processor

C

canelli

Audioholic
I am considering moving my Pioneer receiver from the den to the game room. I have already wall mounted a tv in the game room, but it lacks any type of speakers besides those on the tv. I have some interest in replacing the Pioneer with a pre that has balanced outputs to connect to my Parasound A51. I have read numerous reviews that make an emphasis how much better halo amps sound with balanced versus unbalanced cables. (I am skeptical for several reasons and would appreciate anyone who can provide some feedback). If there is a difference, I have considered the following: Integra 80.3, Marantz 7005, and Cary Cinema 12. If unbalanced is the way to go, I am looking at the cheaper Anthem 300 and Denon ?.

The current den setup is used mostly for tv and movies, but sound quality for music is pretty important.

For features: 3D pass thru would be nice, 4k is useless to me, desire for good room correction is very high (movies)

Depending on the amount I spend for the new receiver/pre, I might to try get some speakers to go with the new resting home of the SC-05. The tv is on a scissoring telescoping mount that can be rotated side to side. Normally the tv is facing forward, but when someone gets on the treadmill it is rotated all the way until the edge of the tv touches the wall. The tv doesn’t make beautiful music anyways, but when its rotated the sound gets very muddy. The person running just keeps cranking the volume louder and louder to hear over the treadmill. So I would like to get some speakers that I can either mount of the walls or underneath on a shelf next to the tv. When on the treadmill, the listener will be off axis to the speakers.

I am trying to keep the total price of receiver and speakers to around $3,200. I would greatly appreciate suggestions on gear and speakers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, I have fully balanced amps. I sure as heck can't tell any difference in SQ between balanced and unbalanced.
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
I have narrowed my choices down to the 80.3, Anthem 300, and 4311.

With a new 4311 selling for under $1200 from an authorized dealer, it becomes a very attractive option.

The question is which makes the better processor for now and the future.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I have narrowed my choices down to the 80.3, Anthem 300, and 4311.

With a new 4311 selling for under $1200 from an authorized dealer, it becomes a very attractive option.

The question is which makes the better processor for now and the future.
I would take the Denon 4311, especially for $1225 brand new delivered from Electronics Expo. We're talking about a $2100 made-in-Japan AVR w/ Audyssey XT32 & so many high-end features. Hands down.
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
I feel like that I already know the answer to this, but I am going to ask/comment anyway.

Stereophile lists the 80.3 as an A product which is on the same level with some more expensive and supposedly better gear.

It's frustrating not being able to get a dealer that has stock where I could do an A/B comparison.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Well supposedly the integras are high end onkyos and I have the onkyo 3009 which is pretty high up in the onkyo lineup and I love it (other than the lack of a GOOD free app to control it). Right now the onkyo 3009s are going for around what the 4311s are going for, and even a little less. That wouldn't be a terrible option either, but the point I'm trying to make is that if your paying significantly more for the integra over the Denon, then it ain't worth. I'd take my onkyo or the denon over the integra, assuming the integra costs more.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I feel like that I already know the answer to this, but I am going to ask/comment anyway.

Stereophile lists the 80.3 as an A product which is on the same level with some more expensive and supposedly better gear.

It's frustrating not being able to get a dealer that has stock where I could do an A/B comparison.
I think the Integra 80.3 is a great product too. Absolutely nothing wrong in getting that fine piece. Everyone feels differently. I would get the 4311 for $1225. But the 80.3 is a fine, fine piece for sure.

I would NOT believe anything Stereophile says, except the lab measurement section.

If the 80.3 is an "A" product, so is the Denon 4311. If Stereophile doesn't believe that, then they are full of crap like most people say.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I have some interest in replacing the Pioneer with a pre that has balanced outputs to connect to my Parasound A51. I have read numerous reviews that make an emphasis how much better halo amps sound with balanced versus unbalanced cables. (I am skeptical for several reasons and would appreciate anyone who can provide some feedback).
The technical difference between balanced and unbalanced cables is real, due to the potential advantage of common mode rejection in differential signaling. The practical issue is, as ADTG points out, whether or not the advantage is audible.

For cables there are two factors. First is cable length. For a few feet of interconnect cabling you are very unlikely to hear any differences. On the other hand, if you're like me and use 45 feet of cable between your preamp and amplifier the potential advantages of balanced cables are much greater, and might be audible. The second factor is the environment the equipment is in. Some people live in areas where there is a lot of electromagnetic interference (San Diego is a good example), and others don't. How close are broadcast transmitters and military facilities, for example?

Balanced cables also have the advantage of using a much better designed, robust, and easier to use connector. So-called RCA connectors and jacks are prone to wear and stress, while XLR connectors, being intended for pro-audio, are better suited for numerous plug/unplug operations. For these reasons I like balanced connections even when there isn't an audible advantage.

In the amps and preamps themselves the balanced connections are often implemented with better-designed circuitry than the unbalanced connections. For example, many amps have double the input impedance on balanced inputs. For long connections or challenging EMI environments this can improve signal quality to the point of audibility. And oftentimes preamps or source components have a lower output impedance on balanced connections too, which is also better for good signal transmission.

Of course, as ATDG would point out, even with all of these advantages you may not hear any differences between balanced and unbalanced connections in your system, and clearly he doesn't. On my tests for short cable runs, even with equipment that I know has a better balanced implementation than an unbalanced one, I couldn't hear the difference either. I haven't experimented on my 45' cable run, so I can't comment on that. My bottom line is that if you can quantitatively prove an advantage for a design strategy you should use it, because sometimes insignificant advantages can add up in a system (of any kind), and simple audibility tests of any one factor may not be revealing enough.

And if all else is unconvincing, I like the secure "click" of a nicely made Neutrik connector a whole lot better than I do fighting with a poorly conceived RCA connector. :)
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
The A51 does double the impedance going from unbalanced to balanced. It looks like the 80.3 doesn't vary the impedance.

Does this mean that the benefit from the balanced connection would be reduced due to the higher output impedance? (Just as a generalized statement)

I asked Parasound about the balanced versus unbalanced. They said there could be some difference due to noise reduction, but that is unlikely for my setup. Also, the +6db gain (using balanced) could be playing tricks on people who think there is a difference in sound due to it just being louder at the same volume setting. - On a side note they offered great support and very helpful in answering my questions.





For example, many amps have double the input impedance on balanced inputs.
Parasound A51 Input Impedance: Unbalanced 47 K ohm, Balanced 94 K ohm :)

And oftentimes preamps or source components have a lower output impedance on balanced connections too, which is also better for good signal transmission
Integra 80.3
Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance 1.0 V/470 Ω(Pre out)
Maximum RCA Output Level and Impedance 5.5 V/470 Ω(Pre out)
Rated XLR Output Level and Impedance 2.0 V/470 Ω(Pre out) :confused:
Maximum XLR Output Level and Impedance 11.0 V/470 Ω(Pre out) :confused:

Arcam Av888
Max output level 6V RMS
Output impedance <50Ω
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
I ordered the 4311 and can't wait to get it.

Now, I can move on to selecting some speakers for the game room.
 
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