2 way vs 3 way

[MrBoat]

I should also add, that the fact that these speakers do not need a sub, is why I was curious about choosing a kit with larger woofers, hence the question about 2 way vs 3 way. I can see smaller woofers handling midrange better because they are closer in size to mids in 3 way speakers. But a lot of the larger woofer 2-way kits, have those compression drivers, which is something else that is new to me as far as what all handles mids and highs.

 

[Swerd]

But a lot of the larger woofer 2-way kits, have those compression drivers, which is something else that is new to me as far as what all handles mids and highs.

Many people see PA speakers in large theaters, concert venues, or night clubs, and mistakenly believe that they would benefit by reproducing that in their homes. Those locations are much larger than rooms in our homes, and they require higher volume levels. They use compression and horn-loaded drivers to achieve that, at the expense of overall audio quality. TLS Guy did mention some newer JBL pro audio speakers that may have improved on that, but they are not available for DIY. In general, we don't have to accept their lower sound quality because we don't need the greater volumes in our homes.

If you are interested in DIY speakers, you should go for the highest sound quality, not the highest volume.

If you want bass levels deep enough for music (in the low 30 Hz range), you can achieve that in floor standing type 2-way speakers without 8" or larger woofers. If you do want to also build subwoofers, you can go for smaller stand mounted 2-way speakers that can go down as low as roughly 50-60 Hz. Usually, sub woofers like that have their own built-in amplifiers, but to properly control them you also need modern AV receivers instead of the older stereo receivers or amps. That introduces a new thing that you may not want to spend money on.

 

[MrBoat]

Many people see PA speakers in large theaters, concert venues, or night clubs, and mistakenly believe that they would benefit by reproducing that in their homes. Those locations are much larger than rooms in our homes, and they require higher volume levels. They use compression and horn-loaded drivers to achieve that, at the expense of overall audio quality. TLS Guy did mention some newer JBL pro audio speakers that may have improved on that, but they are not available for DIY. In general, we don't have to accept their lower sound quality because we don't need the greater volumes in our homes.

If you are interested in DIY speakers, you should go for the highest sound quality, not the highest volume.

If you want bass levels deep enough for music (in the low 30 Hz range), you can achieve that in floor standing type 2-way speakers without 8" or larger woofers. If you do want to also build subwoofers, you can go for smaller stand mounted 2-way speakers that can go down as low as roughly 50-60 Hz. Usually, sub woofers like that have their own built-in amplifiers, but to properly control them you also need modern AV receivers instead of the older stereo receivers or amps. That introduces a new thing that you may not want to spend money on.

Good points. I am going to aim for sound quality after all, being I already have one brute system. No sense trying to replicate what that does. This is an evolving process. This thread was essentially at the beginning of it.

I do have the Denon 3805 I just got, and while it might not be recent, it has multiple channels and a dedicated sub hook-up so it should be a pretty decent compromise between old and new. All it cost me was a 10pk of Murphy's stout and the gas to go get it. He gave me some cables, remote and some other things with it.

 

[ski2xblack]

Just to make clear, MrBoat, I stand by the kit I recommended in your other thread.

Not only did it meet the specific requirements you asked about over there (something inexpensive and loud), but it also just so happens to be a very good performer (perhaps better than those who haven't built them realize). It's not geared for output like a PA speaker, although it is far more sensitive than most domestic speakers, which pays big dividends in terms of required amp power and tremendous reduction of speaker induced distortion. It's a design that emphasizes very smooth, controlled coverage, and Jeff Bagby did a commendable job on the networks; the mids are very smooth. [For those not following, I recommended the SEOS Tempest from diysoundgroup, which I have personal experience with.]

All of the speakers that have been mentioned to you so far would serve as excellent case studies to help you understand how speaker designers juggle all the variables and compromises involved. You should take a close look at everything as you soak this all in.

 

[Swerd]

I do have the Denon 3805…

That older Denon 3805 receiver should easily drive a 2.0 or 2.1 speaker system. It's capable of 120 watts/channel (rated at FTC specs, 20-20,000 Hz, <0.05% total harmonic distortion, while 2 channels are driven). It may not have all the latest bells & whistles, but it may be all you need.

Audioholics reviewed it a number of years ago http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-3805.

If there is one single trend in audio over the last 2 or 3 decades, it would be that the cost of full range (or nearly full range) speakers has gone up, while the cost of amplification power has dropped.

 

[MrBoat]

Just to make clear, MrBoat, I stand by the kit I recommended in your other thread.

Not only did it meet the specific requirements you asked about over there (something inexpensive and loud), but it also just so happens to be a very good performer (perhaps better than those who haven't built them realize). It's not geared for output like a PA speaker, although it is far more sensitive than most domestic speakers, which pays big dividends in terms of required amp power and tremendous reduction of speaker induced distortion. It's a design that emphasizes very smooth, controlled coverage, and Jeff Bagby did a commendable job on the networks; the mids are very smooth. [For those not following, I recommended the SEOS Tempest from diysoundgroup, which I have personal experience with.]

All of the speakers that have been mentioned to you so far would serve as excellent case studies to help you understand how speaker designers juggle all the variables and compromises involved. You should take a close look at everything as you soak this all in.

That one is still a major contender and I appreciate you pointing me to it or I never would have learned about that type of speaker. The style of it actually fits my layout better than anything else. That was a very interesting and smart choice on your part.

Another thing a lot of people don't consider is, that there are a lot of different types of audiophilia. A lot of which defies the seemingly black/white logic of what defines it these days.

 

[MrBoat]

That older Denon 3805 receiver should easily drive a 2.0 or 2.1 speaker system. It's capable of 120 watts/channel (rated at FTC specs, 20-20,000 Hz, <0.05% total harmonic distortion, while 2 channels are driven). It may not have all the latest bells & whistles, but it may be all you need.

Audioholics reviewed it a number of years ago http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-3805.

If there is one single trend in audio over the last 2 or 3 decades, it would be that the cost of full range (or nearly full range) speakers has gone up, while the cost of amplification power has dropped.

I started to research that receiver last night and there were a lot of good things said about it. The guy I got it from even said that when I get it set up and he hears it he may be sorry he got rid of it, which is why I actually at least offered him beer for it.

 

[ski2xblack]

Those Kittinger/Murphy designed MTM towers mentioned up-thread might be even better for your situation than the Tempests,* but the MTMs are a more complex and expensive build. Read the thread on these over in the DIY section, if for nothing else than an analysis of the design. They're an excellent speaker to consider building yourself...the commercial equivalent would set you back a lot of money.

*(controlled directivity approach vs. the wide dispersion apprach that Swerd described above...these aspects are determined by your own goals, but also your specific acoustic space, which is why you really should read Toole's book on acoustics, so that you can make the most appropriate choices...the best systems, e.g. TLS's main rig, exhibit very careful attention to local acoustics to achieve system objectives)

 

[MrBoat]

In spite of seeing this specific question asked in different ways around the web, I think you folks have managed to fill in some holes, especially for people like me who are coming directly from old technology to new, and especially the part of it that seems to get lost with those who really don't have room for (large anyway) subwoofers.

Kind of funny that when I told a friend about the subwoofer dilemma, he suggested (he was half joking) instead a "bass bazooka" behind the sofa, like he had behind the seat of his reg cab pickup back in the day. He claimed that when dealing with small spaces, sometimes, all it has to do is be in the same room to help the bass over the edge of being too little.

 

[MrBoat]

That Kittinger/Murphy designed MTM towers mentioned up-thread might be even better for your situation than the Tempests, but it's a more complex and expensive build. Read the thread on these over in the DIY section. They're an excellent speaker to consider building yourself...the commercial equivalent would set you back a lot of money.

The problem I am running into with 'some' of the towers is that they are dependent on the tweeters being roughly at ear level in a seated position. I have to get these speakers up over the ends of sofas.

I pulled the trigger on the tempests as a starting point. If they don't work out, I will find something else to do with the parts, even if it ends up building another set of monsterous, old school 3 ways with different crossovers.

The other thing that is at odds these days is that I don't do HT. I also never much went for the low-low bass and rumble effects. I had a roommate who had surround and sometimes the rumbling of say, thunder storms, used to irritate me. I'm really not an effects or experience kind of person. This holds true with food or drink as well, or half of the other things that people are trying to get an 'experience' out of these days.

 

[MrBoat]

That Kittinger/Murphy designed MTM towers mentioned up-thread might be even better for your situation than the Tempests, but it's a more complex and expensive build. Read the thread on these over in the DIY section, if for nothing else than an analysis of the design. They're an excellent speaker to consider building yourself...the commercial equivalent would set you back a lot of money.

ETA to this: I did read that thread. I may do those at a later point. There were also some interesting sort of semi-bookshelf speakers I saw from a thread that lists all the free plans that are based around (IIRC) a tower called "sensation."

 

[ski2xblack]

Well, I'll tell you what. I still need two more Tempests to round out the home theater, so if you build them well and don't like them...

I feel kind of bad that you've gone ahead with a purchase at this stage of your edification, but I also have no doubts that they'll knock your socks off, in terms of sonics and value. Consider a sub, too, and a big, capable one to match the Tempests wide dynamic range. The Tempests don't dig quite as deep as your old JBLs. The new-to-you Denon AVR will drive them quite properly and help you blend the subs. Read Bill Waslo's piece on how to exploit controlled directivity to maximum effect.

 

[KEW]

Just in case you have any doubts, your AVR is completely capable as main unit for typical speakers.
Your friend got rid of it for one of few significant changes in newer AVR's - the addition of HDMI which is the modern connection for a video (and audio) signal. Of course that is of no value to you.
For 2 or 2.1 channel audio, that unit wants for nothing unless you end up with power hungry speakers (it is generally a strong unit), and I would consider finding an older AVR like that at a good price as the ideal solution if you use a sub.

 

[MrBoat]

Well, I'll tell you what. I still need two more Tempests to round out the home theater, so if you build them well and don't like them...

I feel kind of bad that you've gone ahead with a purchase at this stage of your edification, but I also have no doubts that they'll knock your socks off, in terms of sonics and value. Consider a sub, too, and a big, capable one to match the Tempests wide dynamic range. The Tempests don't dig quite as deep as your old JBLs. The new-to-you Denon AVR will drive them quite properly and help you blend the subs. Read Bill Waslo's piece on how to exploit controlled directivity to maximum effect.

Don't feel bad, I was wanting to try them anyway. As far as digging deep as the JBL's, I could show you my EQ settings where I am holding the lower end back more often than not, both on the amp, and the software side. I like the punch more than the rumble, which is what I keep seeing mentioned as a notable byproduct of this design. There is also something to said about the presence of larger drivers, even when they are not being played loud. It may just end up being the sweet spot for my situation.

I'll keep you in mind with the passing on in the event they don't suit me.

Something I noticed about these JBL's. The midrange driver is noticeably smaller than the older 3-ways I have. It's not doing much more than filling a hole between the large woofer and the tweeter, but the foundation of the midrange is still coming out of the woofer. Comparatively, it seems like a natural association between these two different types of speakers. I have a feeling I am going to like these.

 

[MrBoat]

Just in case you have any doubts, your AVR is completely capable as main unit for typical speakers.
Your friend got rid of it for one of few significant changes in newer AVR's - the addition of HDMI which is the modern connection for a video (and audio) signal. Of course that is of no value to you.
For 2 or 2.1 channel audio, that unit wants for nothing unless you end up with power hungry speakers (it is generally a strong unit), and I would consider finding an older AVR like that at a good price as the ideal solution if you use a sub.

That's good to know. It looks brand new. He said it has had more use with kids watching cartoons than anything else. Same guy that was going to sell me the Klipsch speakers on the other thread. He's also interested to see about these new speakers. I've done carpentry and furniture work for him before and he was a constant visitor when I was building my boat. As a matter of fact, his company is probably one of the largest contributors to it taking me as long as it wouldn't have normally.

 

[Verdinut]

I should also add, that the fact that these speakers do not need a sub, is why I was curious about choosing a kit with larger woofers, hence the question about 2 way vs 3 way. I can see smaller woofers handling midrange better because they are closer in size to mids in 3 way speakers. But a lot of the larger woofer 2-way kits, have those compression drivers, which is something else that is new to me as far as what all handles mids and highs.

Greetings!
If I understand well, you are still looking for decent speakers to operate in a rather small room.

May I suggest a 2-way system, an MTM configuration which I used a little while ago and which worked pretty well indeed. It consisted of two Morel CAW638 woofers and an Airborne RT-4001 tweeter, an air motion ribbon tweeter, mounted in a 43 liter cabinet. That system had a rather smooth response with a stereo sound image which was amazingly improved because of the wide horizontal dispersion of the ribbon tweeter.
Please note that I obtained a very smooth bass response down to below 40 Hz, which is very good for 6½ inch woofers. Please also bear in mind that those systems have a 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier should be able to handle such low impedance.

I had to depart from them because of space limitation, but I was really deceived by the situation.

So, I sold the speaker units separately but kept the crossovers which I had built and which don't serve me any longer. Should you be interested in trying the above mentioned transducers, I would be willing to sell you the crossovers at a very good price. Please note that the excellent Solen capacitors and air core inductors were used to build them. I designed them myself using the Harris Technologies X-Over Pro software as a starting point, and voicing the whole response in order to obtain a very good performance.

The Morel transducers are easily available, but you can purchase the Airborne tweeters from Madisound or from Solen Canada (Solen.ca)

If my proposal did instill your interest, I could arrange to send you a copy of the impedance curve which I obtained from the speakers which I had. As a matter of fact, those enclosures were heard by some of my friends who liked them, and I also received congratulations from the people at Solen, the company that manufactured the components, with regard to their impedance and phase curves.

Cheers,

André

 

[Bucknekked]

Most excellent post, TLS Guy. I appreciate it.

Most Excellent post X2

 

[Bucknekked]

to describe an illusion I (and others) can perceive with stereo playback. I emphasize the word illusion, it isn't real. It's the difference between music sounding as if it were played by little tiny musicians sitting inside the speaker cabinets, or musicians who emerged from those boxes and appear to sit within your room.

Now I have narrower but taller 2-way towers (MTM design) with two 6" mid woofers, Salk Veracity ST speakers. They certainly do the mid range better, and surprisingly, they also do bass better.

We do get that, and that's why I and others, such as TLS Guy, like answering you .

I have been hooked on that stereophonic "illusion" for nearly half a century. Over the years I've had to sacrifice that illusion for more pragmatic concerns like children, pets, wife and just plain lack of "something". But now that I have it re-established and better understand what it is, I am enjoying it now more than ever. MrBoat has mentioned on a few occasions not wanting to learn too much technical detail about sound systems because in many ways too much book learnin' will spoil your fun. I get that.

I also agree with that sentiment. Understanding enough about audio systems lets me enable/create the type of listening environment my mind wants to hear. Too much information detracts. I think MrBoat already knows way more technical stuff about audio than I do. I also appreciate the fact that even though he knows a great deal, he's still looking for new ways and helpful tints that don't spoil the fun, but let us have a little more enjoyment when we listen.

For TLS guy, I have tried (and am still trying) to gain an appreciation of the classics. I have largely failed. I am an inveterate rock n roll, pop, and popular music guy. I still try however to catch the classic bug because any form of music that has survived all these years must have some merits. Having seen photos of TLS guys setup, I can only say: I aspire to get there someday.

 

[MrBoat]

Greetings!
If I understand well, you are still looking for decent speakers to operate in a rather small room.

May I suggest a 2-way system, an MTM configuration which I used a little while ago and which worked pretty well indeed. It consisted of two Morel CAW638 woofers and an Airborne RT-4001 tweeter, an air motion ribbon tweeter, mounted in a 43 liter cabinet. That system had a rather smooth response with a stereo sound image which was amazingly improved because of the wide horizontal dispersion of the ribbon tweeter.
Please note that I obtained a very smooth bass response down to below 40 Hz, which is very good for 6½ inch woofers. Please also bear in mind that those systems have a 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier should be able to handle such low impedance.

I had to depart from them because of space limitation, but I was really deceived by the situation.

So, I sold the speaker units separately but kept the crossovers which I had built and which don't serve me any longer. Should you be interested in trying the above mentioned transducers, I would be willing to sell you the crossovers at a very good price. Please note that the excellent Solen capacitors and air core inductors were used to build them. I designed them myself using the Harris Technologies X-Over Pro software as a starting point, and voicing the whole response in order to obtain a very good performance.

The Morel transducers are easily available, but you can purchase the Airborne tweeters from Madisound or from Solen Canada (Solen.ca)

If my proposal did instill your interest, I could arrange to send you a copy of the impedance curve which I obtained from the speakers which I had. As a matter of fact, those enclosures were heard by some of my friends who liked them, and I also received congratulations from the people at Solen, the company that manufactured the components, with regard to their impedance and phase curves.

Cheers,

André

I took care of my speaker issue. Actually, once I added the good amp, my old JBL 3-ways became formidable. I was just curious when I posted this thread because when I was into audio 2 decades ago, it was before surround, and most consumer units were full range, 3 ways.

Another poster was able to read between my poor descriptions to what I was after and boldly suggested the DIY Tempests from diy soundgroup. I've since built them and they are righteous.

 

[MrBoat]

MrBoat has mentioned on a few occasions not wanting to learn too much technical detail about sound systems because in many ways too much book learnin' will spoil your fun. I get that.

I also agree with that sentiment. Understanding enough about audio systems lets me enable/create the type of listening environment my mind wants to hear. Too much information detracts. I think MrBoat already knows way more technical stuff about audio than I do. I also appreciate the fact that even though he knows a great deal, he's still looking for new ways and helpful tints that don't spoil the fun, but let us have a little more enjoyment when we listen.

All I know is from having a more direct connection with things like EQ, and buying speakers that did not distort until well above our listening range which was medium to quite loud. I knew others who were the same way and we were all into working the equipment for all it was worth. One thing we all had pretty much in common was what actually sounded good and it was pretty unanimous and all of us had been to the live shows and followed this music religiously for years, so we were ultimately familiar with the material.

I still have a graphic EQ. Just turning it on adds another depth to the sound before adjusting anything. From there it just gets better. I still think manual graphic equalizers have a place in home audio. I find it kind of telling that they became unfashionable right about the time things like vinyl siding for houses became popular, a long with a host of other, 'hose it off and forget it' trends.