12" sub for the Betas?

N

ndangrd

Audioholic Intern
i just ordered an infinity beta speaker system after considering a klipsch synergy system. i had already bought the klipsch sub 12 (& can still return it) though. what is a good sub that will match up with my beta's? i haven't had much luck finding an infinity sub either. the klipsch sub sounds good to me. i'm trying to stay around $500. it appears that many people on here recommend svs. i haven't heard one of them & i don't see any 12" svs subs for around $500.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
SVS has the 25-31PCi for $550 (cylinder) or the PB-10 for $429. Don't let the 10" driver size of the PB-10 fool you, it will easily outperform any mass market sub from Klipsch or Infinity.

You don't need to "match" your sub to your system, just get the best sub you can afford and SVS is a good choice.
 
N

ndangrd

Audioholic Intern
j_garcia said:
SVS has the 25-31PCi for $550 (cylinder) or the PB-10 for $429. Don't let the 10" driver size of the PB-10 fool you, it will easily outperform any mass market sub from Klipsch or Infinity.

You don't need to "match" your sub to your system, just get the best sub you can afford and SVS is a good choice.


based on the reviews, it certainly appears that way about the svs 10". the klipsch sub 12 does sounds good though...better than many more expensive subs i've had the opportunity to hear recently...although it's not as attractive.

of the two subs you listed, which would be better sounding or better matched to the betas (75% movies/25% loud music)? the reason i want a 12" sub was because of the lower extension. in this price range, usually a 12" sub will go lower...
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
Hsu

Also check out the 12" subs from HSU research in your price range.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
No 12" HSU at the $500 price point; closest is the STF-3 at $599. The VTF-2 is $500, but won't go as low as the PB-10 if it is extension you are looking for.

Between the 25-31PCi and the PB-10, the PB-10 will go a bit lower (had good output to 16Hz in my room), and the 25-31 will move more air in the room due to the larger driver, and may give you just a bit more output higher up due to tuning.

Note also the PB-10 is almost certainly larger than the Kilpsch or Infinity subs you've been looking at. The cylinders are tall, but take up very little floor space.
 
N

ndangrd

Audioholic Intern
j_garcia said:
No 12" HSU at the $500 price point; closest is the STF-3 at $599. The VTF-2 is $500, but won't go as low as the PB-10 if it is extension you are looking for.

Between the 25-31PCi and the PB-10, the PB-10 will go a bit lower (had good output to 16Hz in my room), and the 25-31 will move more air in the room due to the larger driver, and may give you just a bit more output higher up due to tuning.

Note also the PB-10 is almost certainly larger than the Kilpsch or Infinity subs you've been looking at. The cylinders are tall, but take up very little floor space.
which svs would you choose of the two? also, is there much of a performance difference between the pb10 & pb12? i was just checking out svs's website. i also want a sub that's built to last since i'll probably have it for quite a while. i don't know if the cylinder's are as durable. i'm just thinking if they were better, why doesn't anyone else use that style?

if i can't find a nice infinity sub, i'm leaning towards trying out the svs..
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The cylinders are definitely durable; they've been selling them for many years. You don't see many cylinders from other manufacturers because they aren't too popular on the SAF front (Spousal Acceptance Factor).

How big is your room? If you have a big room, I'd opt for the 25-31, if smaller, the PB-10 should do well. I owned the PB-10 and I have a large room and I have to say it didn't quite meet my needs but it did surprisingly well for a 10" sub. The PB-12 has more "rumble" to it due to the larger driver, however I don't think it actually goes any lower than the PB-10 (if it does, it isn't much), nor does it have a significant advantage in output. The 25-31 is tuned higher and is a bit more efficient due to the cylinder design - it seemed to have a bit more output than the PB-10 and -12 to me, but I didn't take measurements aside from my PB-10.
 
N

ndangrd

Audioholic Intern
i think my wife would like the cylinders better...she's sick of all the big-box speakers we've had in the past...

my room is 13x20. in the home theater terms, i guess i'm not sure if that's big or not.

it looks like the pb12 has a new driver too...& i can't find anything about the pb10...
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
SVS options

Email SVS and they will suggest the best option in your budget.
In addition to your room length and width, include the ceiling height, if the room is open to other parts of the house, etc. because the sub is trying to pressurize the entire volume of air. In general, bigger and more powwerful subs will play louder and lower.
 
N

ndangrd

Audioholic Intern
jcPanny said:
Email SVS and they will suggest the best option in your budget.
In addition to your room length and width, include the ceiling height, if the room is open to other parts of the house, etc. because the sub is trying to pressurize the entire volume of air. In general, bigger and more powwerful subs will play louder and lower.
13x20x8

i'll email them when i get around to it. i just got the beta's set up & was in for a pleasant surprise. i may be willing to spend a little more now to get a great subwoofer to go along with them!
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
PB-10 also has a new version of the NSD (vs previous ISD) driver, though that fact may not be obvious looking at the spec page.
 
G

greenjeens

Audiophyte
A quality subwoofer capable of reproducing the full range of modern movie soundtrack mixes and the amplified baselines of percussion and synth music, is a the FOUNDATION for appreciating the artists original intent. And worth a long term "investment"!

A good subwoofer will last a long time and provide a great deal more depth to reproduce the carefully created sonic sound stages that already exists on much of our current music and soundtracks.

Finding speakers that can reproduces all these frequencies, with a certain level of accuracy, is worth spending a bit more money on.
Since the most expensive drivers and largest "boxes", as well as most of the amplifier power is required for playback of the lowest frequencies, it's obvious that good equipment won't be cheap.


Ideally you should be listening to these speakers, before you buy them to directly experience, what spending more or less money will mean in terms of sonics. Learning what to listen for is also lost when one goes buy recommendations from others. If you get a chance, try to listen to the best subwoofers, and those slightly above your price range, just to get some perspective on how the better stuff sounds, and if it's even worth any gains.

I'd recommend getting higher quality subwoofers. You may not need speakers that go low and play loud, like in a very large room or studio sound stage.

A good subwoofer should last a very long time, if not overdriven, especially by an underpowered amp, or abused. It should continue providing great clean bass and more enjoyment spread over many years.

Despite all the sophisticated digital equipment and digital storage media, used in recording today, subwoofers and most other playback speakers are the same basic desig... a 100% analog motor, made from wire coils sliding around a magnet, pushing a piece of paper back and forth, in a box, just like the bass reflex speakers from 1930! Were just a lot luckier with our "state of the art" than they were:)

Anyway, buy a good sub, that is well recommended, and I would vote for a subwoofer that is smaller, sealed and more accurate if the choice is with a cheaper sub that is open and less accurate and boomier.

A big speaker in a sealed box, with a big amp would be ideal, but that might cost more. Generally a sealed box is more accurate but has less sound output, which is preferable where a well defined bass sound is appreciated, like music use.
Much of the loudness from a cheaper subwoofer design, can be distortion, since these sonic byproducts/distortion is the range more audible than original low frequencies, which start to be felt, at very low frequencies, more than directly heard. Without training or knowing how the original music version sounded, one might think a more accurate subwoofer was puting out less sound, when it just is not putting out the high distortion we are used to hearing.
These are just generalities, since good subwoofers come in all shapes and designs and prices.

Try looking at what the professionals use, the people who actually make the original recordings of movies and music that we listen to...then copy it with a scaled down version. It's fun to look anyway...
http://www.mkprofessional.com/studio_installations0.htm

The Logic Behind Bass Managmenthe Logic Behind Bass Management
O B S E R V A T I O N S **by **Ken Kreisel
http://www.mkprofessional.com/bass_mgmt.htm



Also, at low frequencies, the room becomes part of the subwoofer system. My 15 inch, 400 watt sub, just makes my old wooden house vibrate more, obscuring a nice tight, low end. If I had a cement floor and heavier walls, the sound would be very different. Kind of like the guy with his super car stereo turned up so high, that every part of his car, that can vibrate, is making some kind of noise:(

One thing that the 15 inch sub does better, than the 12 inch 100watt sub, is shake the couch and walls more when "the spaceships" are fighting etc.... along with shaking everything else not bolted down!

If you crank up bass heavy music, a bigger sub, with a bigger amp, can probably play louder and longer without over heating, where smaller subwoofer's amp can get very hot, when pushed hard...say playing a heavy metal concert DVD! Lots of cooling fins on the backs of subs with internal amps, are useful!

-
Dave
 
N

ndangrd

Audioholic Intern
i returned the klipsch sub i had even though i haven't edited my sig yet...

roughly how much is/was your 15" sub? my guess is that's it's more than my $500-600 budget. i would like a 15" sub, but am unwilling to spend more than that right now...
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
New Onix sub

AV123 is currently working on a new 15" ported sub that will be in your $5-600 price range. It might be worth the wait.
 
G

greenjeens

Audiophyte
IIRC the ULD 15II cost $1K, used, from a guy that worked for Velodyne. But is retailed for ~$2k.
It was nearly new. Buying used can be tricky, but you can save a lot of money. Ebay has quite a few subs.

Subwoofers have advanced quite a bit since when I bought mine, and most are geared towards Home Theater. New subs certainly have a lot more controls for adjusting and tailoring the sound to the room and the other speakers.

Velodyne use to be one of the top of the line subs for accurate reproduction of music and expensive, but there were other manufactures like the Hsiu(?) that were making the round tubed designs, that were getting very good reviews and costing less long ago.

The Velodyne Servo 12 had some minor problems with picking up a radio station. The power button broke I think and the LED went out. I fixed the LED myself, just so I wouldn't have to send it back to Velodyne or take it in again.

I'm not up on the current best performers, but a good sub will last a very long time, but buying from a company that will fix problems and has a long warranty is still a good idea.
-
Dave
 
N

ndangrd

Audioholic Intern
well, i have it narrowed down to a svs pb12 (the new one) & an infinity csw-10. the svs will cost more money, probably a couple hundred more. i realize it should sound better too, but i have to put things into perspective to please the wife here after having bought a 57" mitsu hdtv too ;)

i wanted the cylinder & just observed something that made me change my mind quick...my cat is going to scratch the hell out of it! no, i can't get rid of the cat just yet...

so, there it is...still in the hunt...
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Greenjeens has some good advice. Tailor it to what you are going to be doing primarily with the sub (music..rock or ?, HT..big booms or ?). Do yourself a favor and look at a variety of subs. Spending a little more up-front may satisfy you much longer and save you bucks in the long run. (I wonder how long you'll be satisfied with a PB10.) Most of us have gone through the first, modest sub purchase only to want more and have to upgrade. Be sure to look at ACI and Hsu subs, which aren't too far out of your budget. There are others that may suit your needs, too. Just ask. You'll get plenty of recommendations.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/

http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/speakers.htm#acisubwoofers
 
G

greenjeens

Audiophyte
ndangrd said:
i wanted the cylinder & just observed something that made me change my mind quick...my cat is going to scratch the hell out of it! no, i can't get rid of the cat just yet...

so, there it is...still in the hunt...
That's a good point, I have a Kef speaker grill, I bought from a friend and their cat(s) scratched the heck out of. Generally, I would have thought speaker grill cloth is not a suitable material for cats to sharpen their claws on, to thin and stretchy, but I have the proof to the contradictory:(

Seems like their could be some kind of work around to the cat problem?
You could always buy the cat a real cat scratcher first, liberally laced with catnip, depending on how stubborn the cat is.
 
M

mfabien

Senior Audioholic
ndangrd said:
well, i have it narrowed down to a svs pb12 (the new one) & an infinity csw-10. the svs will cost more money, probably a couple hundred more. i realize it should sound better too, but i have to put things into perspective to please the wife here after having bought a 57" mitsu hdtv too ;)

i wanted the cylinder & just observed something that made me change my mind quick...my cat is going to scratch the hell out of it! no, i can't get rid of the cat just yet...

so, there it is...still in the hunt...
My cats leave the down firing PB-12 ISD alone. Once in the first days one of the cats mounted the sub with no consequence.

 
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