Hijack posts from Hsu/SVS thread...

Hey, I'm scandinavian, tall, blonde and I have huge manboobs since I love to lift weigths

Manic Miner said:

Long stroke drivers At any given price point they will outstroke the competition, and therefore they are also able to deliver higher SPL in the bottom octave, this is simple physics.

Finish They will give you real wood at price points were the competition has settled for vinyl

I have said this over at AVS, but I will say it one more time. I think that the competitors are starting to wake up, and that the HO is the first result of this. If I were out shopping for a sub today the HO would probably have been on my shortlist of candidates, but since real wood finish is important to my girlfriend I probably would have bought the sub I have today all over again (PB12 Plus)

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A few comments. Firstly you are oversimplyfying the performance of long excursion drivers. High sound quality is not as simple as you are suggesting both with respect to SPL and more importantly dynamic and intermodulation distortion which is an area where high excursion drivers fall down. Note well how HSU has implemented the Adires XBL driver technology into the 12 inch driver of this subwoofer. Its a remarkable design achievement perhaps moreso than the turbo and its an important reason why listeners and reviewers are reporting such high sound quality and great SPL at LF .

Real wood is nice and though people don't mention it different material enclosures can affect the timbre and tonal quality of the sub or speaker. Like all things something has to give to keep the price of the sub at a certain point. Some designers implement cheap plate amps while others invest heavily in digital amps, others use vinyl and waferboard instead of cherry wood. The designer has to make many compromises to achieve a certain price target which is why you have to look at the whole design rather than one aspect of it.

SVS makes descent subs though they are not the best sound quality at their price points IMO because of the dynamic and IM distortions from that long excursion driver. What I like about them are their sub 20hz extension so I use one in my quad setup at 12hz tune but restrict output at the 40hz crossover setting.

RMK! said:

He won't leave as he is on a mission (stalker is an apt description). Put him on your Ignore List, works great. In fact, my new rule of thumb is if they are Scandinavian and not tall, blonde and female they automatically go on the Ignore List

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I believe Illka has been banned from this site Rob so you can take him off your ignore list.

I'm not talking about sound quality. SQ is subjective, and it is very hard, if not impossible to say that one is definetly better then the other, and then claim that this holds true for everyone. But for SPL in the bottom octave SVS has so far been in a class of their own. Hsu has by going for a driver with more stroke, and the turbo maybe closed that gap to some degree.

As for dynamic distortion, I guess that is still the same as compression, and from what I've seen SVS is second to none there. IM is something that noone knows the effect of, but since it will can be removed simply by having the driver facing any other way then directly at you it can easily be removed by for example having the driver fire downwards.

These are two examples of why people with knowledge are important. If they are not here to tell us what is right and what is wrong anyone can fill us up to the brim with speculations, technical terms and bullprop. Now Ilkka is banned, and Ed Mullen has withdrawn from the forum scene, so am I the only one left to hold the fort? The thought makes me shiver.

Please unban Ilkka, or someone call Ed

SPL in the deep bottom octaves and sound quality in the audible range are inversely related with high excursion drivers and therein lies my main problem with over-reliance on high excursion drivers. Its also why I am so enamoured with the HSU use with this new Adire motor topology. If you listen critically to different subs higher dynamic and IM distortion will show itself as a loss of detail and smearing in the mid and upper bass. That's why I have always looked cautiously at the THD+n measurements in the various reviews, they don't tell us the full picture about distortion and to the uninitiated those measurements can be misleading.

When I spoke to Dr. Hsu about distortion artifacts in drivers last November he talked at length about his reluctance to embrace high excursion drivers and how he was working on developing a solution to deal with these other distortions. Now we see what he was referring to. Its also why I say while SVS makes descent subs there are several better sounding subs around at the same price point. Having said that I know you have strong views about your SVS subs and I am glad you enjoy them.

I don't know why I came back here and read this crap, but I am sort of glad I did. I was finally able to sort a few things out in my mind. First, lets look at what Ilkka posted: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=165723&postcount=5

You shouldn't try to lie to a guy, who has spent more time with TrueRTA than it's suggested.

Those are NOT 1/24 oct. graphs using 1/6 oct. smoothing. Those are only 1/6 oct. graphs without smoothing. You can clearly count the datapoints.

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Then after Craig says that he can't take 1/6oct measurements, lets look again at what Illka says: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=165979&postcount=71

Yes, it is true that one can only run 1/24 oct. QS, but one can change the resolution afterwards, just like you did. Smoothing is done through the menu, not by changing the resolution from the right. Hopefully you didn't confuse these two.

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Interesting. I think if I'm understanding this correctly, TrueRTA only will take 1/24oct measurements - PERIOD. So, Craig did take 1/24 measurements. But, TrueRTA allows two ways to "smooth" the data. One way, is to dropdata and make it a 1/6oct plot, and another way is to use the "smoothing" function where it retains all the 1/24oct data, but smooths it to look more like a 1/6 oct measurement. I have to admit that I'm not entirerly clear on the second. So, someone please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of how TrueRTA works. I could be off.

I'm now really having a problem with Ilkka calling Craig a liar and stating so strongly that those are 1/6 oct plots (implying that they were 1/6oct measurements). When he is the self proclaimed TrueRTA expert , and knew that TrueRTA won't measure in 1/6oct! He made no mention that it MAY have been a 1/24 measurement converted to 1/6. No, he said, "Those are only 1/6 oct. graphs without smoothing"

I just can't accept the way that Illka choose to handle this. It would have been so easy to say, "Craig, did you use the 1/6 oct smoothing or did you convert the data to 1/6. Very similar functions, but slightly differant. Can you check and post the smoothed if you did the convert."

He could have used the opportunity to educate us all in the capabilities of TrueRTA, and a common mistake, and what the differance is between a smoothed graph and a converted graph. But instead of educating us, he chose what would be just an attack on a guy trying his best.

I used to think his behavior was immaturity. Now, I'm conviced that with Craig, it is an adgenda.

Ryan....you a lawyer by any chance?

Nope, I'm a structural enginerd.

But, most of our clients are lawyers and I do a lot of work on legal documents.


I also want to back up and say that Ilkka does take the time to educate a lot. For the most part, I've seen him mostly helpful with others. Just for some reason, not with Craig. I'm sure if I was willing to wade through all the ugly history, I would understand. But, when it comes to Craig, I think Illka has an adgenda.

ssabripo said:

Ryan....you a lawyer by any chance?

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No, but he stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Great post Ryan.

jakeman said:

I believe Illka has been banned from this site Rob so you can take him off your ignore list.

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No chance, he stays on just in case

---k--- said:

I just can't accept the way that Illka choose to handle this. It would have been so easy to say, "Craig, did you use the 1/6 oct smoothing or did you convert the data to 1/6. Very similar functions, but slightly differant. Can you check and post the smoothed if you did the convert."

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Precisely Ryan! As I said earlier, nobody minds (except Craig, of course ) if people question what procedures are being followed, or how things are evaluated, if it is done courteously and with the benevolent goal of increasing the collective knowledge. What is objectionable is the obvious malevolence behind Ilkka's interrogations. His goal is not to be helpful, but rather to discredit Craig, in any way possible. Unfortunately, there is still one more who has the same agenda.

Ajax said:

Precisely Ryan! As I said earlier, nobody minds (except Craig, of course ) if people question what procedures are being followed, or how things are evaluated, if it is done courteously and with the benevolent goal of increasing the collective knowledge. What is objectionable is the obvious malevolence behind Ilkka's interrogations. His goal is not to be helpful, but rather to discredit Craig, in any way possible. Unfortunately, there is still one more who has the same agenda.

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I couldn't agree more Jack, but it hasn't always been that way. Let's remember before the Nov 20 GTG that Craig offered to PAY Ilkka's ticket to attend and verify a level playing field, and participate. Of course that offer was described as an "empty magnaminous gesture" which Craig had no intention of keeping by Ilkka's friend, IIRC. Having met Craig and you guys, we all know that Craig stands behind his word and a round trip ticket wouldn't have been problem. In Ilkka's defense however, it was somewhat short notice. However, if you're make the claims Ilkka has against Craig, you should at least (hmm, how should I phrase this?, oh WTF) have the balls to back it up with action.

I can't help but think that the almost universal disdain of Ilkka's participation in the main thread has given him pause. We've all made posts that upon later reflection wish we could have worded differently or withdrawn altogether. Unfortunately Ilkka has prolly made hundreds. Also in the deleted AVS thread, he jerked around with Peter Marks (sp?) only to end with "I was just playing with you". That is just plain wrong, Ilkka.

I still think Ilkka has something to contribute. Hopefully he'll realize that how you say something is just as important as what you say. If not, I think he'll just further continue to isolate himself from the mainstream internet community and only if this community can forgive him of his trangressions will he be welcome back.

JeffD2. said:

I still think Ilkka has something to contribute. Hopefully he'll realize that how you say something is just as important as what you say. If not, I think he'll just further continue to isolate himself from the mainstream internet community and only if this community can forgive him of his trangressions will he be welcome back.

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Absolutely, Jeff! The reason I am so disappointed in him is because he is extremely bright, has a lot of knowledge he could share, and could be a VERY positive and helpful contributor. Unfortunately, he's chosen a different path.

I think it's entirely possible for him to EARN his way back to being welcome wherever he, at the moment, is unwelcome. But, I fear he doesn't feel he's done anything wrong, and therefore is unwilling do what is necessary to achieve the universal acceptance he desires. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong.

Biz trip ended earlier than I thought ...

It appears things are moving along. We now have three threads dedicated to complaints ... COOL !

A few comments about my "review threads" ...

1. I will, on average, do 3 stupid things per review. For example, not using the carpet grabber in the VTF-3HO.

Make that 4 things, on average if you count trying the review in the first place...

2. I do these reviews for fun. A couple of magazines, in a moment of desperation, did offer a "job" doing reviews. That would make it work. I work enough in the auto and finance fields.

3. I think listening is still the most important portion of a review.

4. I like subwoofers from Hsu, SVS, Axiom, Velodyne, Rocket, Paradigm, and would love to hear Bosso's, Stevenn's, Ssabripo's, or Bobspgr's (sp?) DIY stuff.

5. I don't hate anyone. Some guys who thought I hated them two years ago, and who declared they hated me, are now friends. There is always hope.

6. It is Friday. This means happy hour.

No love for my DIY???

---k--- said:

No love for my DIY???

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See Line #4 above. There was an oversight. Add "---K---'s" subwoofers: "The Twins"... to the list ...

next time you are in S. Fl you are welcome to hear my DIY...hehe

craigsub: 4. I like subwoofers from Hsu, SVS, Axiom, Velodyne, Rocket, Paradigm, and would love to hear Bosso's, Stevenn's, Ssabripo's, or Bobspgr's (sp?) DIY stuff.

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Craig,

I think what people like best about you is your attitude. It's always laid back, and even in the thick of things, you always end a rant with a "all in fun" type reply.

Hopefully some day you can get your hands on a ML Descent, or any of its smaller brothers for some critical listening. Their website states "Coming April 5th... An entirely new MartinLogan.com." Anyone know what that means?

Buckeyefan 1 said:

Craig,

I think what people like best about you is your attitude. It's always laid back, and even in the thick of things, you always end a rant with a "all in fun" type reply.

Hopefully some day you can get your hands on a ML Descent, or any of its smaller brothers for some critical listening. Their website states "Coming April 5th... An entirely new MartinLogan.com." Anyone know what that means?

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Buckeye ... Much appreciated words. It would be LOTS of fun to try out an ML sub ... maybe it is time to see if that could be done.

Interesting about the "entirely new" Martin Logan ... thanks for the heads up.

good suggestion buckeyefan 1. if anybody can do ML's ... its craig!

as an additional suggestion: since the ML's are famous for being used as audiophile subs ...
I vote for a ML Descent and Velo DD shootout.