Hijack posts from Hsu/SVS thread...

I don't think it is that easy to convert in-room to gp. If it were, everyone would be testing in calibrated rooms rather than constructing aneconic chambers.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate testing methods. I looked at Craig's graphs and thought: "humm, in-room graphs. Cool. It shows what Criag is hearing, but not much else. Too many varibles. " You should know better than most here that it isn't as easy as you made it appear to convert from in-room to GP. I must admit that I'm left questioning your motives for implying that Craig is intentionally misrepresenting his methods or results, rather than just pointing out that these are in-room results and not to be taken as a subsitute for GP.

Honestly Ilkka, I think you have a lot of knowladge, but not a complete knowladge. You have a way of presenting your opinion in a manner that makes you come off as a know it all who's job it is to correct everyone elses mistakes. This often offends a lot of people, myself included. This doesn't mean that your opinion should be totally dismissed as worthless. I'm hoping that you learn to express your opinion in a manner that doesn't offend sooner rather than later.

I really enjoyed hearing Craig's listening impressions. I thought that he was being very fair, and doing the best he could. I've read enough of Craig's posts to know where he is coming from. I took his post for what the were, and in the same manner that I hoped everyone would treat my shoot-out a while ago between Ascends, Paradigms, and DynAudios - or any other post here for that matter.

Wow, what a crapper thread all of a sudden. I'm really really done this time.

Craig, this thread was going fine until you decided to be a baby about it. Ilkka raised some good points about measurement inaccuracy and some non-linear performance that is uncharacteristic of Hsu. If you don't have enough confidence to stand behind your data and justify your posts, why should we?

---k--- said:

I don't think it is that easy to convert in-room to gp. If it were, everyone would be testing in calibrated rooms rather than constructing aneconic chambers.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate testing methods. I looked at Craig's graphs and thought: "humm, in-room graphs. Cool. It shows what Criag is hearing, but not much else. Too many varibles. " You should know better than most here that it isn't as easy as you made it appear to convert from in-room to GP. I must admit that I'm left questioning your motives for implying that Craig is intentionally misrepresenting his methods or results, rather than just pointing out that these are in-room results and not to be taken as a subsitute for GP.

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Actually if you have a reference, like we now have the Ultra, this kind of method can give resonably accurate results, since room will affect on both subs pretty similarly when placed side by side or at the same place (of course there are small differences like I said). But you can't do it without a reference.

Honestly Ilkka, I think you have a lot of knowladge, but not a complete knowladge. You have a way of presenting your opinion in a manner that makes you come off as a know it all who's job it is to correct everyone elses mistakes. This often offends a lot of people, myself included. This doesn't mean that your opinion should be totally dismissed as worthless. I'm hoping that you learn to express your opinion in a manner that doesn't offend sooner rather than later.

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Thanks for the heads up. I know I can sound arrogant and too knowledgeable sometimes, but still the fact is that I don't know many people who can often understand what I post. Just look at this thread. I posted some quite simple graphs and at least to me it seemed that only ManicMiner really got them. Ed Mullen is another one with who I can talk freely, because I know he understands what I'm talking about.

And tell me, would anyone else noticed the things I pointed out recently? So yes, I guess it is often my job to correct everyone elses mistakes and point out some things they haven't noticed. If you are offended by this, I think you should take a look at the mirror.

The long and short of it...the thread's been derailed. 5 pages of the prelude to another flame war...pretty sad actually, everybody loses.

I've never spent a nanosecond with TrueRTA or any other kind of testing software, so I won't comment on that. I have, however, been called bad things by good people and ridiculous things by morons, so I can comment on that. There is this thing called "ignore". If you use that, then it isn't an argument. It's just some guy talking to himself. If Illka is the oil to your water, then don't respond. This comparison has been good, but it ain't finished. Buck up, little camper, and finish this review. Everyone here should know that what you are seeing in your room won't be the same as in their room. This is not the final word on either sub. It's just good reading and good discussion. I hate to be the voice of reason when there's an entertaining squabble going on, but come on, Craig. Get back to the testing.

Ilkka said:

If you are offended by this, I think you should take a look at the mirror.

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I've tried to be fair with you. But that just earned you the honor of being the first person I've put on my ignore list.

Testing will resume tonight ... and for those who are wondering: My TrueRTA software is a couple years old ... (January, 2004, if memory serves) ...

I cannot run a 1/6th octave quick sweep on my software. All I can do is run 1/24 ... if you set the screen to 1/6th, and run quicksweep, it automatically runs a 1/24th octave resolution curve. I learned the smoothing from Ed Mullen.

There will be more on all this later ... but i can also tell you none of the sweeps I showed were with the microphone in the same place.

All I ask for is patience, as I do have a business and kids that are somewhat a priority ... the whole point of this thread is to allow everyone to be involved, including newbies - who want simple language, and are not interested in a "shoot out" in regards to graphs.

Ilkka, I was requested to do this, and have agreed. You are now on my ignore list as well.

craigsub said:

Testing will resume tonight ... and for those who are wondering: My TrueRTA software is a couple years old ... (January, 2004, if memory serves) ...

I cannot run a 1/6th octave quick sweep on my software. All I can do is run 1/24 ... if you set the screen to 1/6th, and run quicksweep, it automatically runs a 1/24th octave resolution curve. I learned the smoothing from Ed Mullen.

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It isn't the version of the software. Yes, it is true that one can only run 1/24 oct. QS, but one can change the resolution afterwards, just like you did. Smoothing is done through the menu, not by changing the resolution from the right. Hopefully you didn't confuse these two.

There will be more on all this later ... but i can also tell you none of the sweeps I showed were with the microphone in the same place.

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I really have to wonder why?

RMK! said:

Some people consider being called a liar very significant. Perhaps your generation (you are a school boy, aren’t you?) does not consider this a serious charge but as you grow up and learn to fend for yourself you may find that accusations like that are serious and should not be casually thrown about.

As I recall, you have been called out by Craig for some of your posts where you expressed opinions on products you have never heard. I think your motivation here is clear.

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This is a great example of why threads go haywire. Instead of sticking to the subject it becomes a debate about personalities and politics. It does not take much brainpower to conclude that by bringing more issues into the discussion we are not moving towards a solution

RMK! said:

Some people consider being called a liar very significant. Perhaps your generation (you are a school boy, aren’t you?) does not consider this a serious charge but as you grow up and learn to fend for yourself you may find that accusations like that are serious and should not be casually thrown about.

As I recall, you have been called out by Craig for some of your posts where you expressed opinions on products you have never heard. I think your motivation here is clear.

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Even though we are in the steam vent, and the thread is split, that doesn't mean questioning age is appropriate.

Jaxvon has shown more maturity then you have with his statement. Craig needs to defend himself, and stop getting throngs of people to say the same thing over and over.

Ilkka has raised good points, and now its Craig's turn to rebut.

SheepStar

Ilkka said:

And tell me, would anyone else noticed the things I pointed out recently? So yes, I guess it is often my job to correct everyone elses mistakes and point out some things they haven't noticed. If you are offended by this, I think you should take a look at the mirror.

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Several people have noted that in-room FR graphs leave much interpretation unless the mic is very close. The better comparison will occur after outdoor measurements. No one suggested they were accurate enough for a FR comparison so why get so excited about a rough graph full of room resonances. Its just another one of your a clumsy attempts to embarass the OP. When you think about it later, you'll realize as most have already suggested that you have only embarrassed yourself and done yet another disservice to the many people who were following this thread for its information.

While I see you trying to justify your behaviour based on cultural differences, that is no excuse for calling smeone a liar, unfair or dishonest. Most people here would rather not interact with someone exhibiting such terrible manners and lack of civility. I believe it doesn't have anything to do with your northern European background and everything to do with your petty jealousy regarding the OP.

Manic Miner said:

This is a great example of why threads go haywire. Instead of sticking to the subject it becomes a debate about personalities and politics. It does not take much brainpower to conclude that by bringing more issues into the discussion we are not moving towards a solution

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A solution to WHAT ? This is a hobby ... we have you pontificating, and as usual, you are doing so from ignorance. Of course, you once again are making comments about your lack of brainpower. At least you got THAT part right.

Now ... before you get your panties knotted up, YOU said figuring this out does not take much brainpower. I am just echoing your comments.

Then we have SHEEP saying I need to defend myself. Hey Sheep - did you read that part where my TrueRTA won't even DO a quicksweep in 1/6th octave ?

If you don't believe me, get off your a$$, and come over. It automatically switches back to 1/24th octave, regardless what one does on the analyzer screen.

For the record, I don;t need to defend myself about anything here.

Hey ... Incivility CAN be fun ... no wonder you guys love it ...

{note ... the above comments are intended as humor. If you figured that out before reading this, you are smarter than Manic Miner }

craigsub said:

Then we have SHEEP saying I need to defend myself. Hey Sheep - did you read that part where my TrueRTA won't even DO a quicksweep in 1/6th octave ?

If you don't believe me, get off your a$$, and come over. It automatically switches back to 1/24th octave, regardless what one does on the analyzer screen.

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Craig,

Yes, it always switches to 1/24 oct. when taking a measurement, but after that you can switch the resolution where ever you want, even 1 octave. You must know this, because how else you would have showed us those graphs? Everyone familiar with TrueRTA knows this, you too.

And your graphs showed only 6 datapoints per octave, so this shouldn't be even a question.

Ilkka said:

Oh, as soon as you tell me what I should be jealous of? You can't buy everything with money...

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Yup you sure can't buy civilty and intelligent respectful discussion.

Manic Miner said:

This is a great example of why threads go haywire. Instead of sticking to the subject it becomes a debate about personalities and politics. It does not take much brainpower to conclude that by bringing more issues into the discussion we are not moving towards a solution

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No, calling people liars and cheaters is a great example of why threads go haywire. THAT is way off topic, don't you think? Then, when people react badly to being insulted, telling them they're "thin skinned" just compounds the felony. In case you don't understand, being called "thin skinned" is also an insult. Perhaps it is the cultural differences. If so, you might do well to stick to forums in your part of the world, or take the time and effort to learn how things are done here BEFORE you shoot your mouth off.

hey, this is fun!!

[Edit: Family-friendly forum. Thanks. - Admin]

Hehehe, AVS should have a forum like this **** (female reproductive organ)! Or in my native tongue, norwegian: FITTE! Or in danish (where i live now) FISSE!

Ah, I feel a whole lot better now.

As for taking "thin skinned" as an insult, I guess it is possible if you are thin skinned I think even Clint DeBoer called Craig thin skinned, now who is going to moderate the moderator?

Well this is the steam vent so.....
on the otherhand it is painfully obivious that Iikka is trying to start trouble, I have appreciated his tests/reviews and the same goes for Craig's but this bickering between them has just been getting way out of hand and it's utterly rediculous.

fergusonv said:

Well this is the steam vent so.....
on the otherhand it is painfully obivious that Iikka is trying to start trouble, I have appreciated his tests/reviews

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I don't and sure wish Manic, Ilkka and the rest of the rod squad from AVS migrate back to the hole which they came from.