Have you ever just "lost it"?

ironlung said:

AMEN

I was trying to say this! Not as clearly, but I was trying!

Now the next post will be a believer with their eye and ears covered afraid to be objective. Snake oil cables any one?

The frescos on my ceiling aren't free. Where are the believers? The Aliens are en route.

Ironlung

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Nope, not from a 'believer'...from me. But it seems you're proselytizing like the best of the religious missionaries.

mulester7 said:

.....Alandamp, does it really need to be said that those incapable of being held accountable, won't, in fact, be held accountable?.....

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These are humans none the less and are going to die and are either going to heaven or hell by your beliefs. They may break the rules, have no way to repent for them, and be doomed to hell. Doesn't quite seem fair does it!!??

Buckle-meister said:

Ah, but it wasn't just anyone was it?!



True, but then, religion isn't quite like any other discipline is it?

Who says logic has been abandoned? If one believes in God, for whom nothing is impossible, then it is perfectly feasible that He can part the sea. And if we accept that, then it is perfectly logical that when Moses, a man Justified in God stretched forth his hand to part the sea, God parted it.

See? Simple!

Regards

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Simple for you. For someone who believes God gave people common sense for a reason (me), not so simple.

alandamp said:

Simple for you. For someone who believes God gave people common sense for a reason (me), not so simple.

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Sorry Alandamp. I honestly wasn't trying to 'rub your nose in it'.

Regards

Buckle-meister said:

Sorry Alandamp. I honestly wasn't trying to 'rub your nose in it'.

Regards

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No worries. All I was trying to say is that I kinda wish my beliefs came as easily as yours. That's what the sad face was for .

Buckle-meister said:

Who says logic has been abandoned? If one believes in God, for whom nothing is impossible, then it is perfectly feasible that He can part the sea. And if we accept that, then it is perfectly logical that when Moses, a man Justified in God stretched forth his hand to part the sea, God parted it.

See? Simple!

Regards

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Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)


Maybe we just don't understand the technology.

Arthur C. Clarke said:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

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I know this quote. Isn't it fabulous?! And sooo true too!

Regards

p.s. I love his books too. Especially the Rama set!

.....two versions, or rather, translations, relevant to the current discussion, imo....you will see why I prefer The Living Bible.....

.....1st Corinthians, 26-31....King James Version.....

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things that are not, to bring to nought things that are; that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. That, according as it is written, he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord".....

.....1st Corinthians, 26-31....The Living Bible.....

"Notice among yourselves, dear brothers, that few of you who follow Christ have big names or power or wealth. Instead, God has deliberately chosen to use ideas the world considers foolish and of little worth in order to shame those people considered by the world as wise and great. He has chosen a plan despised by the world, counted as nothing at all, and used it to bring down to nothing those the world considers great, so that no one anywhere can ever brag in the presence of God. For it is from God alone that you have your life through Christ Jesus. He showed us God's plan of salvation. He was the one who made us acceptable to God. He made us pure and holy and gave Himself to purchase our salvation. As it says in the Scriptures, "If anyone is going to boast, let him boast only of what the Lord has done".....

Beware

rjbudz said:

Nope, not from a 'believer'...from me. But it seems you're proselytizing like the best of the religious missionaries.

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Believe what you want. I'm just trying to save mankind. We will see who has the last laugh when the aliens arrive! It's not to late for you to be saved. PM me and I'll tell you where to send the check. Just make it out to: C.A.S.H. ....Caring Aliens to Save Humanity.

I didn't want to be the chosen one,
Ironlung

Hello, people,
I have not much time as I'm getting ready to leave tomorrow for the Gulf to help out with the 'cane vics and see if I can get into another one. Oh, boy.
Anyhoo, here is my decimal 02 worth...that was for you, Buckle.

I'll double space some so as not to be such a hard read as one of my previous posts was pointed out to be. True. I appologize.

I think some of you are actually putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. As pointed out, some people will only agree to have faith or belief if the facts prove reason to have such. While I believe there are enough facts to justify my faith, they are not my sole reason I believe. Like Mule said, the ways of the Lord are foolishness to the world. I will back up a little further in 1st Corinthians chapter 1, starting at verse 20. This is from the New International Version.

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

So much of the Bible, including and perhaps especially the miracles and Jesus claiming to be the Son of God, is utter foolishness to those who do not believe. I really don't really expect non believers to accept much of it. It is only once the mystery of God is revealed to you and you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior that the Bible will start to make sense. Then will you accept the stories as truth.

There has to come a time in your life where you realize that 1) you have a problem in your life and that problem is sin. 2) You can in and of yourself do nothing about it. 3) The penalty for that sin is death and Hell 4) Someone did provide a payment for your sin-debt and that person is Jesus. 5) You repent of your sins and invite Jesus into your heart.

Buckle is right in that once you believe, then its not that hard to accept that God did a miracle throgh Moses and parted the Red Sea or that the walls of Jericho fell down.

As far as the mentally debillitated, babies, etc, I believe this is where grace kicks in. I cannot beyond a shaddow of a doubt prove this, but in my studies and from discussing with other believers much more spiritually mature than I am, I believe this would be the case. It would seem out of God's character to send someone to Hell that can in no way make an intelligent decision. I stress once again that this is my opinion and not chapter and verse.


Well, enough for now as I really need to pack. I can't wait to get back and see how the thread is going! Keep searching! If you are serious about God, he will reveal himself to you. The Bible says "those who seek me find me" Proverbs 8: 17.

One last thing. I think it was Ironlung that staunchly believes most folks simply believe what their parents do. True for many people, but not all. My mother and grandmother were devoted Christians, but my dad not. Mom and grandmom did see to it I was always in church. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. I heard the word and believed. Not because mom did, but because the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and called me to repentance from sin. Because mom believed had little to do with it. I fought hard walking down that aisle, thinking of what all my friends at shcool would think, etc, but knew God was calling and I just had to go. I did drift from my walk for awhile, examined my faith and found it to be true, so I am once again in good relationship with Christ and grounded in my faith.

A good friend of mine convicted me of not examining things for myself when I was in high school. We were discussing politics, of all things and he asked me why I was such a staunch particular party to be unamed follower. I could not really come up with a good answer, only a couple of pat, generic ones. He said if I did not even know what the party stood for, then how could I be such a strong supporter? It both embarassed me and convited me to not do that again. Bully for him!

Best wishes to all
Dukester

Well of course all that is true,gezz. I saw the movie.

I killed a fly once

mulester7 said:

.....we're dealing with what to our minds is the Supernatural, Pyrrho....and we have been told our way is likened to looking through a glass darkly....there is no reasoning it out...

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rjbudz said:

...
Seriously, Alandamp, you must remember what has been said here. There is only "FAITH". There is no proof. There is no logic (even though some might want to try to prove their faith). I like Mulie's statment..."it's a walk of faith". Proof and logic cannot prevail in a metaphysical discussion...by its very definition. So do not look for it.
...

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I could not disagree more. The fact that some people refuse to reason about a subject does nothing to show that one cannot reason about it.

And as for refusing to apply logic, that, it seems to me, means that it can only be nonsense that you are talking about.

In point of fact, it is easy to show that many details of many religions can be examined. For example, in the Koran, it is claimed that there was this guy named Mohammed, who said that he received revelations from God. Well, obviously, whether a guy Mohammed existed or not is an historical fact, which can be examined with the usual historical methods. And whether he claimed to receive revelations from God is another historical fact, which, again, can be examined via historical methods.

It is true that some of the claims of religion require different kinds of examination, though with "metaphysical" claims, generally speaking, the first step is getting people to define their expressions and to tell us what, precisely, they mean. Of course, if they are talking nonsense, then there will be no definition. Many people, quite literally, do not know what they are talking about, because they speak nonsense.

I suspect, though, that the real motivation for saying that one cannot reason about religion is to protect it from scrutiny.

Buckle-meister said:

...

Logically; yes. But Christians believe that at some point in every persons life, God will reveal Himself to you. Therefore, if you choose to spurn Him, when you die, you cannot turn around in ignorance and say "What? I never knew that! Nobody told me about that!"

At this point, you burn forever and ever and ever




























and then some more. ...

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I am not sure which of two approaches to take, so I will include both.

First, people of other religions make this same kind of claim. If you reject Islam, you will burn in hell for all eternity. God will reveal this to you, so you have no excuse if you reject Islam.

Second, it reminds me of something in
Bertand Russell's essay, "Why I am not a Christian":

Fear, The Foundation Of Religion

Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by the help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.

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Which, of course, leads to the answer to this question:

Buckle-meister said:

Pyrrho said:

But if your religion is really true, why do you fear a careful and impartial examination of it?

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Who does?

Regards

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Evidently, quite a few people do, as they have been told (and they believe) that their immortal souls depend upon their belief. The thing is, if one has an immortal soul, and if its future depends upon the accuracy of what one believes, don't you think it a good idea to examine one's beliefs as carefully as one can?

The Dukester said:

...

One last thing. I think it was Ironlung that staunchly believes most folks simply believe what their parents do. True for many people, but not all. My mother and grandmother were devoted Christians, but my dad not. Mom and grandmom did see to it I was always in church. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. I heard the word and believed. Not because mom did, but because the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins and called me to repentance from sin. Because mom believed had little to do with it. I fought hard walking down that aisle, thinking of what all my friends at shcool would think, etc, but knew God was calling and I just had to go. I did drift from my walk for awhile, examined my faith and found it to be true, so I am once again in good relationship with Christ and grounded in my faith.
...

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You appear to think of yourself as an exception to what Ironlung stated. However, you have admitted that you believe what your mother and grandmother taught you when you were young and impressionable.

Many Muslims say similar things about their religion. They feel that God confirms their faith, too. Are their feelings less valid than yours?

Pyrrho said:

I could not disagree more. The fact that some people refuse to reason about a subject does nothing to show that one cannot reason about it.

And as for refusing to apply logic, that, it seems to me, means that it can only be nonsense that you are talking about.

In point of fact, it is easy to show that many details of many religions can be examined. For example, in the Koran, it is claimed that there was this guy named Mohammed, who said that he received revelations from God. Well, obviously, whether a guy Mohammed existed or not is an historical fact, which can be examined with the usual historical methods. And whether he claimed to receive revelations from God is another historical fact, which, again, can be examined via historical methods.

It is true that some of the claims of religion require different kinds of examination, though with "metaphysical" claims, generally speaking, the first step is getting people to define their expressions and to tell us what, precisely, they mean. Of course, if they are talking nonsense, then there will be no definition. Many people, quite literally, do not know what they are talking about, because they speak nonsense.

I suspect, though, that the real motivation for saying that one cannot reason about religion is to protect it from scrutiny.
?

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Pyrrho,

You can completely disagree all you want, but you are entirely off base. In this duel of logic, you have essentially brought a knife to a gunfight. And your stated suspicion of "real motivation" is as incorrect, ignorant, and as full of assumptions as anything said within this thread...not to mention thoroughly illogical.

Let me re-reinterate...and watch carefully this time....nothing is up my sleaves.... If you go to your basic college Logic 1A course you will learn the following: discourse about metaphysical issues...(that is "BEYOND PHYSICS") is just that...beyond physics. It is NOT subject to logical discussion or proof. Period. You can NOT prove anything related to one's faith in metaphysical things. Simultaneously, believers in a god can NOT prove its/his/her existence. Proof and logic do NOT apply.

Now, Pyrrho, you can analyze and compare and argue religions. You can test historical facts. By golly, you can even say "that doesn't make any sense!". These people you are criticizing are mostly Christians who have adopted a FAITH...a set of guiding principles. (And be clear...I don't subscribe to that, or any religion. So do not put me in the position of having "suspicious motives".) If they say, as an example, that "X is gonna happen and if you don't repent, you're going to hell"...that is their FAITH. It is not logical, Pyrrho, and it is not subject to logical examination, no matter how hard you want it to be. In fact, you disagree with these Christians in much the same way a Muslim would. You'd both say to the Christian..."That's a nutty belief...it doesn't make sense". And hey...in fact you did say that many of these people are "speaking nonsense"...see, you have your 'beliefs' too.

It seems that you'd like Reason and Logic to be your gods...but they have their limitations too, my friend. They have no dominion over the metaphysical world of faith (or even speculation about gods). So learn how to use Reason and Logic correctly...as the tools they are designed to be.

rjbudz said:

Pyrrho,

You can completely disagree all you want, but you are entirely off base. In this duel of logic, you have essentially brought a knife to a gunfight. And your stated suspicion of "real motivation" is as incorrect, ignorant, and as full of assumptions as anything said within this thread...not to mention thoroughly illogical.

Let me re-reinterate...and watch carefully this time....nothing is up my sleaves.... If you go to your basic college Logic 1A course you will learn the following: discourse about metaphysical issues...(that is "BEYOND PHYSICS") is just that...beyond physics. It is NOT subject to logical discussion or proof. Period. You can NOT prove anything related to one's faith in metaphysical things. Simultaneously, believers in a god can NOT prove its/his/her existence. Proof and logic do NOT apply.

Now, Pyrrho, you can analyze and compare and argue religions. You can test historical facts. By golly, you can even say "that doesn't make any sense!". These people you are criticizing are mostly Christians who have adopted a FAITH...a set of guiding principles. (And be clear...I don't subscribe to that, or any religion. So do not put me in the position of having "suspicious motives".) If they say, as an example, that "X is gonna happen and if you don't repent, you're going to hell"...that is their FAITH. It is not logical, Pyrrho, and it is not subject to logical examination, no matter how hard you want it to be. In fact, you disagree with these Christians in much the same way a Muslim would. You'd both say to the Christian..."That's a nutty belief...it doesn't make sense". And hey...in fact you did say that many of these people are "speaking nonsense"...see, you have your 'beliefs' too.

It seems that you'd like Reason and Logic to be your gods...but they have their limitations too, my friend. They have no dominion over the metaphysical world of faith (or even speculation about gods). So learn how to use Reason and Logic correctly...as the tools they are designed to be.

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You are completely wrong. Aside from countless books written about metaphysics in which people argue for their positions, the simple fact is that "beyond physics" does not mean the same thing as "beyond logic" or "beyond reason" or "beyond proof". There are many things "beyond physics" to which it is quite common to apply logic and proof. Mathematics comes to mind.... Of course, anyone can refuse to reason about such things, but that in no way shows that one cannot reason about them.

Pyrrho said:

You are completely wrong. Aside from countless books written about metaphysics in which people argue for their positions, the simple fact is that "beyond physics" does not mean the same thing as "beyond logic" or "beyond reason" or "beyond proof". There are many things "beyond physics" to which it is quite common to apply logic and proof. Mathematics comes to mind.... Of course, anyone can refuse to reason about such things, but that in no way shows that one cannot reason about them.

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Wrong? Countless books? (Books for/against the existence of god?) You have the handle of truth then, eh?

Okay...reason out and prove the existence or non-existence of heaven. Go ahead, Pyrrho. I'm not saying it's beyond discussion. It's just beyond logical proof. Go ahead....I'll wait.

rjbudz said:

Wrong? Countless books? (Books for/against the existence of god?) You have the handle of truth then, eh?

Okay...reason out and prove the existence or non-existence of heaven. Go ahead, Pyrrho. I'm not saying it's beyond discussion. It's just beyond logical proof. Go ahead....I'll wait.

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Hmmm...got awfully quiet around here. No proofs yet? QED!

Oh, and Pyrrho, mathematics is different than metaphysics...it is NOT metaphysical. Further, mathematical "proof" is not the same as proving a metaphysical issue. A mathematical "proof" is an "identity". It is the same as saying "I proved that what I said is what I said". 2+2=4 is an example of that "proof"...it's an identity...not a proof of anything more than saying "These expressions (on each side of the equal sign) are equivalent".

If you wish to learn about more about these issues, I suggest strongly that your get yourself a copy of Emmanuel Kant's The Metaphysics of Morals, or Hintikka's Knowledge And Belief: An Introduction to the Logic of the Two Notions.

Good cheer.

I'm waitingf for simply proff of heaven. And because somebody writes a book with big words does not prove anything. Proff would be somebodys been there and tells us about it. Of course that person would be put away. LOL

The one true way!!!

Rjbuds and Pyrrho,

The clock still ticks....



'they' have room for skepicts on the ship also.


See post 199 on this thread.



You just have to have faith.


The chosen one,
Ironlung C.A.S.H.