Integrated VS Stereo Receiver?

speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
If that is the only concern, then I would say use the Denon 100%.
I agree here. Chances are the DAC in the Denon is as good as the Wolfson in the Cambridge. Not exaclty 100% on that, but close enough. Given that my desktop setup is directly right next to my Main, the X3300 should power my 220's via Zone 2 reasonably well for near-field purposes. I will just have to level match myself via my RS SPL meter and some test tones. Should be easy enough.

If the X3300 does not meet my expectations powering the 220's, then I will purchase this here and use my Cambridge instead:

https://www.amazon.com/Fanmusic-FM6011-Coaxial-Converter-Digital/dp/B00A2QJK5I

Might just go ahead and order this anyways just in case. It is only $20 so no big loss if it is not needed. Many people claim the Wolfson DAC's are a step above the norm. I do know it made my B&W CM1 S1's sound fantastic and never even broke a sweat. Space is more of a problem when using the SR20 than anything else really. :):):)


Phil
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
86 dB 1W/1m is on the low side, but not terribly so. Using the usual calculations, you would need 10w to listen at 89 dB 1W/1m and 100 watts to listen at 92 dB 1W/1m. Those are average levels, so either seek out a dynamic power spec, or play it safe with a continuous output rating even higher than those numbers.

1w/1m should be the 8 ohm rating, but check to make sure. It correlates to 2.83volts output of your amplifier. For a 4 ohm speaker, 2.83v is 2 watts.

Were it me, i would be seeking power in the 60~100 watt region, and would consider higher power if my budget could justify it. But, even with, say 25~40 watts, most people over-estimate the SPLs they listen at. So don't seek out excess power over Sound Quality (SQ), as any listening level below your 86 dB spec, you will only be using fractions of a watt continuously.

I would suggest downloading a Sound Pressure Meter (SPM) app for your smartphone, and take some readings at sound levels at your listening position for volume levels you feel you would be using. You could then take another reading 1 meter (3.3 feet) from the speaker without changing the volume level to get a number you can correlate to your speaker sensitivity rating.

You can use your TV as the source if you don't currently have a working audio system. TV sound is highly compressed, so whatever Sound Pressure Level (SPL) you read on the meter will be more-or-less the continuous output level. You may be surprised at how little the SPL you actually listen at. Knowing those numbers will help you decide on the power level to seek out.
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
86 dB 1W/1m is on the low side, but not terribly so. Using the usual calculations, you would need 10w to listen at 89 dB 1W/1m and 100 watts to listen at 92 dB 1W/1m. Those are average levels, so either seek out a dynamic power spec, or play it safe with a continuous output rating even higher than those numbers.

1w/1m should be the 8 ohm rating, but check to make sure. It correlates to 2.83volts output of your amplifier. For a 4 ohm speaker, 2.83v is 2 watts.
I assume (I have no doubt you are very knowledgeable in this field) you made a typo or something, as the sentence "10w to listen at 89 dB 1W/1m and 100 watts........." seems confusing. Based on the sensitivity spec of 86 dB/2.83V/1m as specified by Wharfedale, it would be 2W to listen at 89dB at 1m if the nominal impedance is 8 ohms, or 4W to listen to 89 dB at 1m if the nominal impedance is 4 ohms. So to get 92 dB at 1m, only 8W would be needed, not 100W, and that's for just 1 speaker. The specs also say "Peak SPL: 95dB", presumably at 1m, that would only require 16W even if the nominal impedance is 4 ohms and again, that's if only 1 speaker is playing. I think a 100WPC amp will be all he needs, but even a real 50WPC amp will give him plenty of headroom as it is obvious those speakers are not designed to play loud or take too much power.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree here. Chances are the DAC in the Denon is as good as the Wolfson in the Cambridge. Not exaclty 100% on that, but close enough. Given that my desktop setup is directly right next to my Main, the X3300 should power my 220's via Zone 2 reasonably well for near-field purposes. I will just have to level match myself via my RS SPL meter and some test tones. Should be easy enough.

If the X3300 does not meet my expectations powering the 220's, then I will purchase this here and use my Cambridge instead:

https://www.amazon.com/Fanmusic-FM6011-Coaxial-Converter-Digital/dp/B00A2QJK5I

Might just go ahead and order this anyways just in case. It is only $20 so no big loss if it is not needed. Many people claim the Wolfson DAC's are a step above the norm. I do know it made my B&W CM1 S1's sound fantastic and never even broke a sweat. Space is more of a problem when using the SR20 than anything else really. :):):)


Phil
Just curious, I understand your Dell does not have optical/coax output, but it should at least have a headphone jack output, why can't you just use a 3.5mm jack to RCA cable or adapter and see if the sound quality is acceptable?

Installing a good sound card is very easy, if you tell us the Dell's model number, maybe someone can provide you with some help or let you know if it is even a good option.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
... but even a real 50WPC amp will give him plenty of headroom as it is obvious those speakers are not designed to play loud or take too much power.
I've used a 50WPC AVR for a long time powering big HT tower speakers that have minimum impedance down to 2.7 ohms. So I definitely agree. :D
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Just curious, I understand your Dell does not have optical/coax output, but it should at least have a headphone jack output, why can't you just use a 3.5mm jack to RCA cable or adapter and see if the sound quality is acceptable?

Installing a good sound card is very easy, if you tell us the Dell's model number, maybe someone can provide you with some help or let you know if it is even a good option.
The model # to my Dell is as follows:

XPS8910-4020LV and SKU# 5614907 at BB. It does have (2) headphone outs btw. If my X3300 does not do as I hope, then I will just buy this:

https://www.amazon.com/Fanmusic-FM6011-Coaxial-Converter-Digital/dp/B00A2QJK5I


Then connect my Cambridge via dig coax. I know the Cambridge will make my 220's sound really good as it did my B&W CM1 S1's. Made for a potent combination. :):):)


Phil
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I agree here. Chances are the DAC in the Denon is as good as the Wolfson in the Cambridge. Not exaclty 100% on that, but close enough. Given that my desktop setup is directly right next to my Main, the X3300 should power my 220's via Zone 2 reasonably well for near-field purposes. I will just have to level match myself via my RS SPL meter and some test tones. Should be easy enough.

If the X3300 does not meet my expectations powering the 220's, then I will purchase this here and use my Cambridge instead:

https://www.amazon.com/Fanmusic-FM6011-Coaxial-Converter-Digital/dp/B00A2QJK5I

Might just go ahead and order this anyways just in case. It is only $20 so no big loss if it is not needed. Many people claim the Wolfson DAC's are a step above the norm. I do know it made my B&W CM1 S1's sound fantastic and never even broke a sweat. Space is more of a problem when using the SR20 than anything else really. :):):)


Phil
As you said you can use the Denon, but if it doesn't work I'd get this hdmi to coax adapter instead of the usb to coax just because who knows how that would really sound.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
As you said you can use the Denon, but if it doesn't work I'd get this hdmi to coax adapter instead of the usb to coax just because who knows how that would really sound.
I appreciate the suggestion. But, I plan to just try the X3300 first. If that does not work with my listening habits/demands, then I will buy the USB to dig coax adapter I linked above and use my Cambridge SR20 to power the 220's. If I can find the room to add a second set of fronts, then I will use the Cambridge to power them and buy an integrated amp to power the 220's. However, not sure if I will keep my B&W CM1 S1's as the second set of fronts OR opt for a new set of Wharfedale Diamond 10.1's instead. Let just say, I am leaning more towards the 10.1's. ;););) If that is the case, then the B&W's will either go in my BR or I will just sell them off.


Phil
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I appreciate the suggestion. But, I plan to just try the X3300 first. If that does not work with my listening habits/demands, then I will buy the USB to dig coax adapter I linked above and use my Cambridge SR20 to power the 220's. If I can find the room to add a second set of fronts, then I will use the Cambridge to power them and buy an integrated amp to power the 220's. However, not sure if I will keep my B&W CM1 S1's as the second set of fronts OR opt for a new set of Wharfedale Diamond 10.1's instead. Let just say, I am leaning more towards the 10.1's. ;););) If that is the case, then the B&W's will either go in my BR or I will just sell them off.


Phil
Honestly I think your x3300 will work just fine. I really don't see you needing to do anything else. Plus, more speakers is never a bad thing. :)
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Honestly I think your x3300 will work just fine. I really don't see you needing to do anything else. Plus, more speakers is never a bad thing. :)
Yes, I agree with you. But, I am mostly a music guy and have b/c very picky as of late. Not to mention, I have OCD which dies NOT help matters at all. Just hope my Diamond 220's will work in the near-field. Guess, I will know soon enough. Been busy last few days so hope to get things setup and going. Working on it, but not moving very fast ..........LOL!!!!! :):):)


Phil
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes, I agree with you. But, I am mostly a music guy and have b/c very picky as of late. Not to mention, I have OCD which dies NOT help matters at all. Just hope my Diamond 220's will work in the near-field. Guess, I will know soon enough. Been busy last few days so hope to get things setup and going. Working on it, but not moving very fast ..........LOL!!!!! :):):)


Phil
What really is your concern about using the 3300? If it is about power, the 3300 will likely do better than the SR20. Also, as I mentioned before, the Diamond 220 is not designed to take a lot of power. If's peak spl is only 95 dB, so basically suitable mainly for near field listening anyway.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
What really is your concern about using the 3300? If it is about power, the 3300 will likely do better than the SR20. Also, as I mentioned before, the Diamond 220 is not designed to take a lot of power. If's peak spl is only 95 dB, so basically suitable mainly for near field listening anyway.
I see. Then, this is all good news for me. I really don't listen that loud anyways. Much more into SQ than SPL. Will know soon enough. Have my daughter and grandsons coming in from TN this weekend. Hope to get a lot of this done before then. But, may have to wait until the week after Memorial Day. Just don't move too fast anymore. Thanks for all of your help Peng! You have helped me a lot over the years. One thing is for certain, I got the Audyssey calibration process down to a science...........all thanks to you! :D:D:D


Phil
 
Last edited:
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
I assume (I have no doubt you are very knowledgeable in this field) you made a typo or something, as the sentence "10w to listen at 89 dB 1W/1m and 100 watts........." seems confusing. Based on the sensitivity spec of 86 dB/2.83V/1m as specified by Wharfedale, it would be 2W to listen at 89dB at 1m if the nominal impedance is 8 ohms, or 4W to listen to 89 dB at 1m if the nominal impedance is 4 ohms. So to get 92 dB at 1m, only 8W would be needed, not 100W, and that's for just 1 speaker. The specs also say "Peak SPL: 95dB", presumably at 1m, that would only require 16W even if the nominal impedance is 4 ohms and again, that's if only 1 speaker is playing. I think a 100WPC amp will be all he needs, but even a real 50WPC amp will give him plenty of headroom as it is obvious those speakers are not designed to play loud or take too much power.

To increase the acoustic output by 3dB you need 2x the amplifier power in watts. However you also need about 13dB of headroom above the average power level to insure no distortion on transients. The sine wave used for measuring sensitivity of loudspeakers is in essence a continuous or average power level, without consideration of transient signals.

My suggested power levels are just the levels I found desirable with Solid State amps and those measured average SPLs to accommodate clean transients. It wasn't intended to reflect the strict average power level required to power the average sensitivity.

Your clarification is welcome; I didn't intend to mislead by implying the values were strict measured values. Just practical values in real-world listening.

Modern amps tend to have less robust power supplies than older ones, where big transformers were the norm and there was no competitive advantage in using smaller VA rating units. When you're shipping from China instead of across one or a dozen US states, weight looms large in the retail price. Today there is a huge incentive, because retail prices are such an important part of marketing in the internet age, and the consumer has a large number of tools to read the market price trends. So even $10 can play a large role in overall sales.

The result is that transient power ability is compromised; not necessarily with just a single tone burst as the supply can usually deal with those if not superbly, at least adequately (as is done when creating amp specifications) but repeated transients over a short period of time. The remedy is to seek higher average power output.

A related issue is as the loudspeaker is driven, some power is lost as heat. There is limited ability to dissipate heat in a driver so that heat tends to accumulate. As the power is increased, so does the heat generated in the voice coil. This has the effect of raising the loudspeaker's impedance, lowering SPL, and encouraging turning up of the amp, which adds more heat, which raises impedance, which lowers SPL ... well, you get the idea.

Totally out of the scope of this particular discussion, but perhaps worth mentioning is that vacuum tube amps seem capable of repeated short-term transient power considerably beyond their average power ratings while still meeting the average power rated distortion, while with a transistor amp if you can manage 2x, you're doing quite well, and 1.4x is quite common. It's a rarely explored area of the power envelope, but what little has been done supports it.
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
To increase the acoustic output by 3dB you need 2x the amplifier power in watts. However you also need about 13dB of headroom above the average power level to insure no distortion on transients. The sine wave used for measuring sensitivity of loudspeakers is in essence a continuous or average power level, without consideration of transient signals.
Thank you for clearing that up, and I agree we should always keep the music peaks in mind. I typically want to, and all my systems have, at least 20 dB above my estimated average power needs. I mostly listen to classical and jazz. Just one side note, since amps are specified in rated average power (so called rms but technically incorrect) based on sine wave, a 100WPC rated amp is actually 200WPC if rated for it's peak power so there is a 3 dB headroom sort of build in, and that often gets ignored in some online calculators I have seen.
 
Last edited:
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Thank you for clearing that up, and I agree we should always keep the music peaks in mind. I typically want to, and all my systems have, at least 20 dB above my estimated average power needs. I mostly listen to classical and jazz. Just one side note, since amps are specified in rated average power (so called rms but technically incorrect), a 100WPC rated amp is actually 200WPC if rated for it's peak power so there is a 3 dB headroom sort of build in, and that often gets ignored in some online calculators I have seen.
I wish you were right, but there are many amps that have comparatively little headroom beyond their continuous rating, and they seem to be more numerous now than in the past.

I have found that if you look at the 8ohm and 4ohm power ratings, you can get some clues as to the transient power available. In the "classic" days, virtually every Class AB amp would double power into 4 ohms; these days about 1.4x seems common. That corresponds to the mathematical equivalent of RMS to full wave alone. Since this directly relates to the reserve capacity of the power supply, it also hints at the ability to produce clean transients.

It also must be said that many IC based amps have inherent power limitations, and that type is also commonly used in consumer gear versus discreet components ... for example the common LM3886 cannot produce more than 65 watts into 4 ohms despite a 40w rating into 8, and there is nothing you can do with the power supply to improve that.

It also has the unfortunate habit of clipping asymmetrically with the negative half-wave clipping before the positive half (which leads to some nasty high order harmonics). Similarly, many ClassD amps provide maximum power into just one impedance, falling if the load rises or falls.

We often have IHF peak power specifications to look at as well, but unfortunately they don't give us any clues to how repeated transients over a period of time fare.

In the end, it's just easier to build systems with higher RMS ratings; at least then you can be sure of the available power when you need it.

20dB headroom is a nice cushion; and if you listen to classical music, probably could be considered a minimum requirement. You make a wise choice.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...There is limited ability to dissipate heat in a driver so that heat tends to accumulate. As the power is increased, so does the heat generated in the voice coil....
And BLOWS his darn speakers that are rated for only 25-100W/95dB peak SPL. :eek:

So I would definitely try to keep the volume well below 90dB to be safe. :D
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Honestly, I do not know anything about sound cards. Even if I did I have no way to install one other than paying someone to do so. I do have, however, a former coworker that could do that for me. The problem is he works so much he has little time to do so. BSA recommended I get a Samsung EVO 850 SSD. Maybe my former coworker could install both a sound card and a Samsung SSD. Will look into it. BTW, have a sound card in mind? If so, please provide me a link. Thanks!


Phil
Youtube is your friend ;)

And, I want to add......you should not have ANY differences b/w the toslink vs digi coax. They are the same signal for all practical purposes. So, if there is a difference, there must be some other setting or DSP going on that should be defeated.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top