Do all amplifiers sound the same thread

[Hobbit]

In practice too, someone just has to do it. People had been to the moon and back, the science and tech behind amps are pretty basic in the grand scheme of things. Problem is, no matter what the labs do and show, there are always die hard ones who would insist on "well, those aren't the ends, got to trust your ears.....even a low cost amp makes a huge ....and yep at any volume blablabla..... and being open minded we have to find ways to rationalize why at 2W or less a low cost amp would do such wonder to a high cost AVR. For me I stick with high quality media source and speakers where I hear the difference easily and can enjoy the improvements instantly without the need to beat the dead horse first with 3 DB and Steve.

This reminds me of the old saying: Measure with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, and cut it with an axe!

Yep, that equipment is out there to do all these measurments. I'm sure that the designers are using awesome simulation tools that do all this too. You will find a million and one differences if you look hard enough....

 

[3db]

This reminds me of the old saying: Measure with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, and cut it with an axe!

Yep, that equipment is out there to do all these measurments. I'm sure that the designers are using awesome simulation tools that do all this too. You will find a million and one differences if you look hard enough....

I'm sure there may be measureable differences but are they audible? IMO, things audible can be measured but not all things measured are audible since human hearing is far coarser and less sensitive then any of the tools used to measure amplifier characteristics. Like PENG stated, I rather swap out speakers or treat the room acoustically then try and chase away gremlins by swapping out amplifiers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...there are always die hard ones who would insist on "well, those aren't the ends, got to trust your ears....

Yes, and if they own Krell, Mark Levinson, Pass, MBL, and other $10-$50K amps, I won't argue with them.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Are you referring to a dual function FFT measurement. Where it takes the input from any type source (pre system) and compares it to the output of the device or system and shows the delta in freq., phase, time etc.? This function along with MLS testing and Impulse Response FFT exist currently more often these testing functions are utilized for speaker testing though.

No. What I read about takes any input, like music, and produces a difference signal file. I've been busy for the past couple of days, but when I get a chance I'll look around for what I was referring to.

 

[Hobbit]

I'm sure there may be measureable differences but are they audible? IMO, things audible can be measured but not all things measured are audible since human hearing is far coarser and less sensitive then any of the tools used to measure amplifier characteristics. Like PENG stated, I rather swap out speakers or treat the room acoustically then try and chase away gremlins by swapping out amplifiers.

For sure, there are measurable differences between the same amplifiers. All the individual components that they're built with will measure different. 5 nines % of the time you won't be able to tell the difference audibly.

I've never disagreed that amplifiers will sound markedly different. At least when comparing apples to an apples. I am a believer there are subtle differences that can be discriminated audibly, however. Then is this truly better or just preference? The human ear isn't a measurement! I like my tele, my friend likes his strat. I am convinced, and it may take a lot of listening to a lot of different material, that my B&K and Acurus are subtly different. I have no emotional attachment to either of these.

And, the amount of "improvement" per dollar goes exponential. I used to race bikes, I won more races on a relatively inexpensive bike than I ever did on the super fancy ones. But I sure like my current bike better than any other I've ever owned

 

[cpp]

At least when comparing apples to an apples. .

:

man lets not use apples as different kinds of apples actually do taste different (Golden Delicious and Red Delicious vs a Granny Smith).
Carry on

 

[ski2xblack]

No. What I read about takes any input, like music, and produces a difference signal file. I've been busy for the past couple of days, but when I get a chance I'll look around for what I was referring to.

Like this? That article is twelve years old, not sure if anybody has actually built one in the meantime.

 

[Hobbit]

Like this? That article is twelve years old, not sure if anybody has actually built one in the meantime.

It's not that hard to do. You can use oscopes, spectrum analyzers, and vector signal analyzers to collect and capture/store data. These all digitize. There are plenty of signal generators - arbitrary waveform generators - that you can build your input waveforms on a PC and then download them to the generator. Then you can use a program like Matlab to do the waveform comparisons and analysis. There are quite a few dedicated software analysis tools available (most probably fall under RF analysis).

 

[Irvrobinson]

It's not that hard to do. You can use oscopes, spectrum analyzers, and vector signal analyzers to collect and capture/store data. These all digitize. There are plenty of signal generators - arbitrary waveform generators - that you can build your input waveforms on a PC and then download them to the generator. Then you can use a program like Matlab to do the waveform comparisons and analysis. There are quite a few dedicated software analysis tools available (most probably fall under RF analysis).

That's not one of the articles I had in mind, but it is much closer. Hopefully I'll get some time soon to find the ones I read. It was a year or two ago, I think.

 

[PENG]

Yes, and if they own Krell, Mark Levinson, Pass, MBL, and other $10-$50K amps, I won't argue with them.

Neither would I...........

 

[PENG]

For sure, there are measurable differences between the same amplifiers. All the individual components that they're built with will measure different. 5 nines % of the time you won't be able to tell the difference audibly.

I've never disagreed that amplifiers will sound markedly different. At least when comparing apples to an apples. I am a believer there are subtle differences that can be discriminated audibly, however. Then is this truly better or just preference? The human ear isn't a measurement! I like my tele, my friend likes his strat. I am convinced, and it may take a lot of listening to a lot of different material, that my B&K and Acurus are subtly different. I have no emotional attachment to either of these.

And, the amount of "improvement" per dollar goes exponential. I used to race bikes, I won more races on a relatively inexpensive bike than I ever did on the super fancy ones. But I sure like my current bike better than any other I've ever owned

Subtle differences, I can buy in to that, but I do get skeptical about those huge, or day/night improvements even when at SPL that don't demand much more than a few watts avg and may be 20x peaks. I won't say it will never happen, just skeptical.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Subtle differences, I can buy in to that, but I do get skeptical about those huge, or day/night improvements even when at SPL that don't demand much more than a few watts avg and may be 20x peaks. I won't say it will never happen, just skeptical.

Me too. I'd sure like to know why my new Outlaw pre-pro / ATI combo sounds so much better than my old Sony AVR. It shouldn't. There should be no difference at all, but my wife and I hear a difference. Same sources, same cables, same speakers. The AVR must be defective in some way.

 

[PENG]

Me too. I'd sure like to know why my new Outlaw pre-pro / ATI combo sounds so much better than my old Sony AVR. It shouldn't. There should be no difference at all, but my wife and I hear a difference. Same sources, same cables, same speakers. The AVR must be defective in some way.

There can be many reasons but yep defects could be one.

 

[Jeff R.]

So....if I were to power my entire system with lets say Pro Amps like Crown Amps......is there anyway to know if that would be better than using a well made Home Audio Amp?

Will the amp type make a big difference in my sound or will it be purely my distortion percentage and usable power that will shape the way my speaker will sound?

 

[mtrycrafts]

man lets not use apples as different kinds of apples actually do taste different (Golden Delicious and Red Delicious vs a Granny Smith).
Carry on

And, even the same variety but different ages can taste different.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Me too. I'd sure like to know why my new Outlaw pre-pro / ATI combo sounds so much better than my old Sony AVR. It shouldn't. There should be no difference at all, but my wife and I hear a difference. Same sources, same cables, same speakers. The AVR must be defective in some way.

There can be many reasons but yep defects could be one.

And/or a more probable cause is how well it was level matched, blinded and how many correct guesses were achieved.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, and if they own Krell, Mark Levinson, Pass, MBL, and other $10-$50K amps, I won't argue with them.

Neither would I...........

Not if you want to keep friends.

 

[ski2xblack]

And/or a more probable cause is how well it was level matched, blinded and how many correct guesses were achieved.

Or the Sony was lopping off a peak here and there, where the ATI wasn't. (Just trying to give Irv's ears the benefit of the doubt before throwing them under the DBT bus.)

 

[Irvrobinson]

And/or a more probable cause is how well it was level matched, blinded and how many correct guesses were achieved.

We've been playing the Outlaw/ATI combination at a lower listening level than the Sony AVR, so your level matching comment is irrelevant. And, yes, I measured at our viewing position. I still suspect the Sony is defective.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Or the Sony was lopping off a peak here and there, where the ATI wasn't. (Just trying to give Irv's ears the benefit of the doubt before throwing them under the DBT bus.)

Thanks, I appreciate the benefit of the doubt, but I honestly don't think it's the ATI. These are small 8 ohm JBL monitors in non-optimal positions, only in stereo, and I suspect either amp peaks at no more than a few watts. At listening levels 3-4db lower (on average) voice intelligibility is better. That is weird. I think something is not right in Sony land. Because the HDMI video is also cleaner through the Outlaw I further suspect the Sony.