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reddevil6

Audiophyte
Ok hey guys this is my first post.
I have a pair of 3ft towers that are 20 years old but they where great speakers, a 2.5" tweeter, 10" mid-woofer and a 10" passive radiator sub, about a inch of the cone (wich is like a hard plastic) has tore of the ruber seal on both subs, i could fix it but cant be ****ed i want to build new 3 ways into these towers and just use the tweeter and mid-woffer and same crossover to build some other speakers for a system for the shed.
now with building these towers what type of drivers should i use? all there used for is music hip-hop i like lots of bass.
for the bass in 3 ways do ppl use woofers or sub-woofers?
i was thinking a dome tweeter mid-woofer and a woofer or a sub would that sound good or ****. or should i just do a normal tweeter, mid range and a woofer or sub.
ive never built speakers before
also whats the difference between a woofer and a sub-woofer?
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
in most all speakers, you cannot replace woofers as they depend on the box volume to "control" them. about the only thing you can replace is tweeters, and even that is not entirely simple. your best idea would be to actually build completely new speakers that have the correct box volume for the woofers you decide to install. also surrounds (the rubber thing around the cone) are not that hard to repair. and to answer your question about the difference between woofers and subwoofers is, sometimes, nothing, depending on the woofers size and bass capability. you can build a decent sub with a regular woofer. most speakers today have smaller drivers (5.25-6.5 inches) because they are easier for the suspension and spider (same thing?) to control and can cover mid-range and mid-bass more accuratley then heavy low frequency woofers. woofers specifically designed for low frequencys ( about 150hz and below) are sub-woofers, they cannot cover any midrange whatsoever but they are better used as low end drivers only because of how they are designed specifically. regular large bass capable woofers are built to cover up to 2khz in most cases. you can build a 4-way system with subwoofers built into the mains, but it is complicated and since low frequencies are a bastard to get correct room placement, it is best that they are routed to a seperate speaker (subwoofer) that can be optimally placed. full range speakers must be in a certain area equi-distant apart and usually closer to walls (bad thing) where as subwoofers can be placed in the center of side walls reducing reflections which cause uneven peaks and drops in the bass response.
 
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adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
in most all speakers, you cannot replace woofers as they depend on the box volume to "control" them. about the only thing you can replace is tweeters, and even that is not entirely simple. your best idea would be to actually build completely new speakers that have the correct box volume for the woofers you decide to install. also surrounds (the rubber thing around the cone) are not that hard to repair.
I completely agree.... :eek:



:p

OP, terrible idea... unless you can find identical replacement drivers, you're wasting your time. By the time you spend the money to "fix" them, you could easily buy a pair of speakers that sound- well- like speakers are designed to.

Whats your budget?
 
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reddevil6

Audiophyte
hang on so are yous saying it wont work out if i take these speakers out and try and build a hole new setup in the cabnets?
my best bet would be to buy hole new speakers already built?
my budget is about $1200.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
hang on so are yous saying it wont work out if i take these speakers out and try and build a hole new setup in the cabnets?
my best bet would be to buy hole new speakers already built?
my budget is about $1200.
BINGO was his NAME-O

Yeah, drivers are designed for specifically designed cabinets- the crossovers are also specifically designed for the drivers and cabinets as well. You can't just go dropping whatever you want to whatever you want. It will make noise but won't reproduce sound any where near accurately.

For 1200 bucks you'd be WAY better off going back to the drawing board. You could design and build a world class speaker or buy a very nice speaker for that kind of money.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
heck you could design an awesome speaker for 600 a pair. 1200 would be fantastic.
 
C

Codifus

Junior Audioholic
..... most speakers today have smaller drivers (5.25-6.5 inches) because they are easier for the suspension and spider (same thing?) to control and can cover mid-range and mid-bass more accuratley......
I think that most speaker manufacturers are using smaller woofers to reduce the frontal area of the entire speaker, thereby minimizing diffraction. Very common now are speakers with dual or even 3 six inch woofers instead of a single ten or twelve inch woofer from the days of old. This newer design contributes to a slimmer, less diffraction prone frontal area while keeping the bass output robust. It also helps to push the tweeter up to listening height.

CD
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
yes and from my experience 3 5.25" drivers really sound tighter in bass then one large 10" one.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
most speakers today have smaller drivers (5.25-6.5 inches)
Yes. Because aesthetically, that's what sells.
because they are easier for the suspension and spider (same thing?) to control
Nonsense.
and can cover mid-range and mid-bass more accuratley then heavy low frequency woofers.
Somewhat correct but misinformed. Larger LF woofers, lower mass, not "heavy", can (and do) produce accurate midbass and midrange.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
I think that most speaker manufacturers are using smaller woofers to reduce the frontal area of the entire speaker
Yes. Slim sells.
thereby minimizing diffraction.
No. This actually increases the diffraction bandwidth by reducing the baffle size. You are most likely thinking of HF diffraction, rather than total diffraction loss (aka "baffle step"), but it's the same thing. The only baffle shape solution for HF diffraction is edge roundover...large ones...which would widen the baffle....and sell less speakers.:)

It also helps to push the tweeter up to listening height.
:confused:.
The tweeter can be placed at "listening height" regardless of baffle width.

cheers,

AJ
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
not entirely, if they are lightweight enough then fine, but thats always a challenge, if you attempt to build a 2-way speaker with a large 12" woofer it's not going to sound all that great unless the driver is really lightweight, thats why most really large speakers are 3-way, but then again, there is alot more to it then size, you can get the same bass from a 6" woofer then you can get from a 15" one if its done right, just look at pro sound speakers, most of them dont have a response lower then 50hz, but my small polk bookshelfs have more bass then them. cabinet volume has a bit to play in bass reproduction, this is why floorstander have better bass then bookshelfs, even if they have the exact same drivers in them. like my monitor 40s are good down to 47hz, but the exat same drivers placed in a large floor cabinet are good down to 38hz. i also owned a pair of sonys well two pairs that had the exact same driver config and the floors had tons more bass then the bookshelves. there are so many factors that go into good bass and size is only one of them. if you mess with a BV calculator and increase the QTC you keep getting more bass as the cabinet volume goes up.
 
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C

Codifus

Junior Audioholic
Yes. Slim sells.

No. This actually increases the diffraction bandwidth by reducing the baffle size. You are most likely thinking of HF diffraction, rather than total diffraction loss (aka "baffle step"), but it's the same thing. The only baffle shape solution for HF diffraction is edge roundover...large ones...which would widen the baffle....and sell less speakers.:)


:confused:.
The tweeter can be placed at "listening height" regardless of baffle width.

cheers,

AJ
Thanks for the clarification. As for the listening height of the tweeters, by having 2 small woofers instead of one big woofer, the speakers is therefore taller and therefore easier to put place the tweeter at listening height.

CD
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
you dont need more woofers to increase cabinet volume.




both these speakers are the same height.

tweeters generally dont rely on the box volume to control them, so they can be placed anywhere in the cabinet, not that anywhere is a good place, but you can put a woofer at the very top of the cabinet and a tweeter at the bottom, although this would sound bad. adding more woofers does one of two things, increases the amount of power a speaker can handle, and in some cases but not all, increases the low end of the response, because two woofers combined can move more air. it also increases the overall output of the speaker. and sometimes gives a wider vertical soundfield.
 
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AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
if you attempt to build a 2-way speaker with a large 12" woofer it's not going to sound all that great unless the driver is really lightweight
Inductance is more important than mass, so it doesn't have to be "really lightweight" (which could mean whatever you want it to mean...just like "sound all that great"). 12" 2 way designs can be made (and are made) to sound "just great"(subjective).

you can get the same bass from a 6" woofer then you can get from a 15" one
No (unless the 15 has practically zero travel). Sound pressure is a function of swept area.

just look at pro sound speakers, most of them dont have a response lower then 50hz, but my small polk bookshelfs have more bass then them.
No they wont. They (Polk) may extend lower in frequency at the standard 1watt or 2.83V input, but in absolute terms, they will have less bass (Sound pressure) capability output. You are confusing extension and output. The 15" "pro" speaker (btw, there are plenty of non-pro, non reflex large diameter woofer designs) may have (free space) output that is -3db @ 50hz vs your Polk bookshelf -3db @ 40 hz, but in terms of maximum SPL at say 30hz, the 15 will be much greater. And again, there are plenty non pro 15" speakers that can be sealed and/or have greater LF extension.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
No they wont. They (Polk) may extend lower in frequency at the standard 1watt or 2.83V input, but in absolute terms, they will have less bass (Sound pressure) capability output. You are confusing extension and output. The 15" "pro" speaker (btw, there are plenty of non-pro, non reflex large diameter woofer designs) may have (free space) output that is -3db @ 50hz vs your Polk bookshelf -3db @ 40 hz, but in terms of maximum SPL at say 30hz, the 15 will be much greater. And again, there are plenty non pro 15" speakers that can be sealed and/or have greater LF extension.
I'm glad you pointed that out.. something that is overlooked frequently.

You think the OP is completely scared off yet?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Inductance is more important than mass, so it doesn't have to be "really lightweight" (which could mean whatever you want it to mean...just like "sound all that great"). 12" 2 way designs can be made (and are made) to sound "just great"(subjective).


No (unless the 15 has practically zero travel). Sound pressure is a function of swept area.


No they wont. They (Polk) may extend lower in frequency at the standard 1watt or 2.83V input, but in absolute terms, they will have less bass (Sound pressure) capability output. You are confusing extension and output. The 15" "pro" speaker (btw, there are plenty of non-pro, non reflex large diameter woofer designs) may have (free space) output that is -3db @ 50hz vs your Polk bookshelf -3db @ 40 hz, but in terms of maximum SPL at say 30hz, the 15 will be much greater. And again, there are plenty non pro 15" speakers that can be sealed and/or have greater LF extension.
No sh!t ?!? :D
 
L

Loren42

Audioholic
not entirely, if they are lightweight enough then fine, but thats always a challenge, if you attempt to build a 2-way speaker with a large 12" woofer it's not going to sound all that great unless the driver is really lightweight, thats why most really large speakers are 3-way, but then again, there is alot more to it then size,
I'm not sure what you mean about lightweight. Are you talking about the cone's mass?

The real reason has much more to do with the width of the driver's cone. When the reproduced frequency's wavelength is less than that distance the driver begins to beam and the off-axis response goes from omnidirectional to forward firing. The higher the frequency the narrower that beam.

When you match a large driver in a two-way configuration you will have a hard time blending the off-axis response between the woofer and tweeter. This is what drives designers toward 3-way designs, so as to better control the off-axis response throughout the audio spectrum.

Cone mass affects the resonance frequency of the driver and the transient response of the driver. That has no effect on the driver's directivity.


you can get the same bass from a 6" woofer then you can get from a 15" one if its done right, just look at pro sound speakers, most of them dont have a response lower then 50hz,
Yes, and no. It is possible to make a 6" woofer produce very low bass, but in the end it is all about moving volumes of air. If you produce a downward sweeping frequency tone of constant amplitude, as frequency descends, the amount of cone displacement increases. The tweeter's movement is almost nil, but the woofer will be stroking.

A 15" requires a lot less excursion than a 6". It also better couples that low end power to the room. The 6" has to work too hard and will require a design that allows for very large cone excursions, yet remain linear in its impedance and inductance through that large excursion. That is far easier to do on a 15" woofer than a 6" woofer.


but my small polk bookshelfs have more bass then them. cabinet volume has a bit to play in bass reproduction, this is why floorstander have better bass then bookshelfs, even if they have the exact same drivers in them. like my monitor 40s are good down to 47hz, but the exat same drivers placed in a large floor cabinet are good down to 38hz. i also owned a pair of sonys well two pairs that had the exact same driver config and the floors had tons more bass then the bookshelves. there are so many factors that go into good bass and size is only one of them. if you mess with a BV calculator and increase the QTC you keep getting more bass as the cabinet volume goes up.
Most bookshelf speakers are a sealed cabinet and generally have a much higher F3 than a vented counterpart. If you increase the cabinet volume you lower the Qtc of the enclosure.

The effect of Qtc on the response of an enclosure works like this:

The higher the Qtc (smaller the box) the response curve develops a positive bump at the knee of the bass response. This tends to make the box boom.

A Qtc of .7 yields a maximally flat response. The bass extends down flat until the driver resonance and slopes off at 6 dB/Octave.

When the Qtc is less than .7 (larger box volume) the bass knee drops off earlier (higher in frequency) and the rate of the rolloff slope is gentler (less than 6 dB/Octave).

A lower Qtc will result in weaker sounding bass, not bigger, but it will extend lower in frequency because the rolloff rate is less than 6 dB/Octave. The reason a larger floor standing enclosure (with the same driver) sounds like it has more bass is more likely due to room placement (coupling with the floor and walls and corner) and the bookshelf box Qtc may be higher than optimum (just a guess).

The only real way to evaluate the two systems is to have each loudspeaker suspended in a very large room with the walls and floor/ceiling at least 32 feet away or more so as to eliminate reflections. This would be the 4∏ anechoic response curve.

Evaluations in your living room are fraught with the artifacts caused by room modes and reflections interacting with the response and the placement of the loudspeakers under test need to be the same. Some test software has the ability to gate the signal received by the test microphone, but this has two adverse effects. The first is to reduce the resolution of the data. The second is to limit how low you can measure in frequency. Both render getting low end response impossible at one or two meters. The only way around that is to measure the bass response in the nearfield (about 1/4" away).
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm not sure what you mean about lightweight. Are you talking about the cone's mass?
The kid's talking about his brain and cranial density which is why he's talking out his @ss. For anybody that doesn't know, those red things mean that he doesn't know squat and should never be listened to. He's about to be sporting a full row of them in a day or so.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
no i worded it wrongly, i know that they wont be able to output the same level as a large pro speaker.
 

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