Building $5k stereo around B&W 804s

[Ausfart]

I have Nautilus 804s, some Polk outdoor patio speakers on a zone 2, a Harmon Kardon DVD/CD/SACD player, Charter digital cable (not HD), a VCR, IPOD/dock and 30-inch standard tube TV. My 75 Watt, 7.1 channel Harmon Kardon AV 635 receiver will be removed from service due to a processor malfunction. Listening room is about 12x20 feet with speakers along the wide wall facing a 9-foot leather couch and 6-foot leather coffee table, on a wood laminate/concrete slab floor mostly covered by large area rug, with 12 feet of filled book shelves along one short end of the room. I want a major upgrade in high-fidelity stereo sound for music and for movies. Musical taste includes bluegrass, jazz, classical and rock. I have $5,000 to spend.

My favorite shop recommends:

Rotel RB 1080 stereo amp (200 watts, 2 channels) ($999);
Rotel RC-1082 stereo preamp ($1199);
Rotel RCD 1072 HDCD player ($699);
Transparency MusicLink Plus interconnects pr. 1 mtr. ($360);
Transparency MusicWave Plus speaker cables par. 12' ($1010); and
Audio Authority 4x1 component video autoselector 1154A ($239).

Shops says above maximizes hi-fidelity music sound. They analog stereo simplicity of the above set-up will sound significantly better for music than anything at $5k cost involving multi-channel with video switching. I like the promise of a spine tingling musical sound improvement over the old HK set-up but do not like the need for separate video switching device and lack of am/fm tuner.

I wonder if a surround sound receiver (like Rotel RSX 1067) or pre/pro (like Rotel RSP 1069) would not sound equally good for stereo music while simplifying video switching for the above components, giving me am/fm and allowing a simpler future addition of HD TV and surround speakers. If the stereo sound from the recommended Rotel components were sufficiently sweet, my interest in a potential future surround speaker set-up might wane. Even if I never go to surround speakers, I might in the future add a subwoofer to improve deep bass for music and movie effects.

If separate stereo amplifier and stereo preamp would deliver clearly better musical sound than the surround receiver or pre/pro approach, what do people think about the Rotel components my shop recommends versus similar components from Anthem (MCA20 applifier [225 w/2ch]) and TLP1 pre/pro/tuner or AVM30 pre/pro/tuner). Any other recipe for a $5K system to run B&W 804s for music?

Does $1000 for the Transparancy 12-foot speaker cables and another $360 for the Transparancy interconnects make sense? I am willing to believe that cable choice at these prices can make a difference.

Would dropping the $699 Rotel CD player and just continuing to use my Harmon Kardon DVD 47 player degrade the sound audibly? If not, I could throw the $699 at another part of this system.

My long-distance reference is my father's late 1990s all-Mcintosh 150 w/ch ss receiver and CD system driving some giant Italian floor standers. I like the idea of McIntosh but don't think I can afford anything like that to run my 804s.

Your thoughts much appreciated.

 

[MUDSHARK]

In a word about the cables, No. I doubt that anyone here would suggest spending anywhere near that kind of money on cables. Blue Jean cables is about as far as any of us will go.


The difference in more expensive cd players is quite subtle and only comes into play with an analog pre-amp. If you have an eye on future surround then pick a pre-amp or processor whose DAC's please you. Consider a trip to Outlaw's website. Their equipment has gotten great reviews and with the switch to HDMI equipment imminent some great bargains could be found. The Outlaw quality is comparable to Rotel, IMO.

 

[jamie2112]

Monoprice cables, Blue jeans , Rocketfish are all great sounding cables for a fraction of the cost of the cables you listed. I mean A FRACTION.......

 

[PENG]

Instead of spending $2500 on preamp and cables, why not spend $300 on cables and the remaining $2200 on a decent receiver that can take care of your needs for video/audio switching and use the preouts with the 200WX2 power amp. For serious music listening you can select pure direct mode that typically turns off the video circuits and anything not needed, thus allowing the receiver to work almost like a preamp. Not everyone can hear the difference between a mid/high end receiver and a $1000 preamp but you are going to have to find out for yourself.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Diminishing returns and conveniences are the key.

If you worry a lot about giving up all the conveniences, then you may just have to compromise a little.

This debate of receivers vs pre-pros vs analog preamps has been going on for a long time.

Specification-wise, higher end stereo preamps (i.e. Bryston, ML, Krell, etc.) have the clear edge--far superior channel separation, THD, frequency response, SNR, output impedance, etc.

Receivers are pretty much equal to any pre-pro out there in terms of specs, especially the higher price receivers from Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Marantz, etc.

This brings us to the point of diminishing returns and the human audible thresholds.

THD < 1%, F.R. of 20Hz-20kHz +/-3dB, Crosstalk < -30dB 20Hz-20kHz, etc., are suppose to be the threshold points.

Supposedly, even if the components have THD of 0.0001%, F.R. of +/-0.000dB, & Crosstalk < -140dB, we wouldn't hear the difference.

So if this were true and you believe it, then there would be no reasons to buy a separate analog stereo preamp. You would just buy a high-end receiver.

As for me, I just use 3 stereo analog preamps for my 5.1 HT movies, SACD, DVD-Audio, and for 2Ch Stereo music. I do not use a receiver or a pre-pro.

If you could audition for free, you should do it to see if the analog preamp sounds better than a receiver or pre-pro.

However, I would love to buy the Bryston BP6 analog stereo preamp for $1,500 @ Digitalcraze.com, instead of the Rotel preamp for $1,200.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wonder if a surround sound receiver (like Rotel RSX 1067) or pre/pro (like Rotel RSP 1069) would not sound equally good for stereo music while simplifying video switching for the above components, giving me am/fm and allowing a simpler future addition of HD TV and surround speakers.

I think for most people, a high-end AV Receiver would give the same sound quality as a stereo preamp.

If separate stereo amplifier and stereo preamp would deliver clearly better musical sound than the surround receiver or pre/pro approach, what do people think about the Rotel components my shop recommends versus similar components from Anthem (MCA20 applifier [225 w/2ch]) and TLP1 pre/pro/tuner or AVM30 pre/pro/tuner). Any other recipe for a $5K system to run B&W 804s for music?

If I were getting Anthem, I would get the Anthem AVM40 pre-pro and PVA5 (or PVA7) amp.

I think it would be a toss-up between Anthem vs. Rotel.

Does $1000 for the Transparancy 12-foot speaker cables and another $360 for the Transparancy interconnects make sense? I am willing to believe that cable choice at these prices can make a difference.

Would dropping the $699 Rotel CD player and just continuing to use my Harmon Kardon DVD 47 player degrade the sound audibly? If not, I could throw the $699 at another part of this system.

Don't waste any money on those exotic cables. The 2 most important things about any cable are the shielding and the connectors. Blue Jeans Cables make excellent custom-made cables (you actually specify the length of the cable) at a reasonable price. I cannot recommend Monoprice because I believe they use cheap connectors. You need high quality connectors.

I believe it would be a toss-up between the HK47 vs. the Rotel CD player, so I would not spend money on the Rotel.

Other options:
Yamaha Z11, Denon 4308 or 5308 (or Marantz equivalent), & Onkyo 875 or 905 (or Integra equivalent).

 

[jcPanny]

Requirements

The recommended system does not meet several of your requirements including video switching, iPod connection, powering outdoor speakers, etc.

I nice receiver ($1k+) will do all this and allow you to connect any stereo amp for the B&W's. Get one of the Oppo Digital univeral players ($150-$400) and you can use the HDMI connection for DVD-A and SACD audio. If you go this route, you can have the dealer loan you the stereo pre-pro and prove any SQ improvment before you buy.

If you really want to simplify the signal path, you should consider a tube or solid state integrated amp for a 2 channel system with the B&Ws.

 

[jostenmeat]

Many ways to skin a cat.

First of all... how about room treatments? Most would say nothing will provide more bang for buck. Check out Real Traps and GIK. There are discounts on packages as well, at least with the former.

You could buy monoblocks, Outlaw makes affordable ones. Just add more when more speakers arrive.

Or, if you get a receiver, and want a 2-ch pre/pro, you can simply add one that has HT bypass. You want one with unity gain as well, that still works while turned off as to not imbue its own sonic signature during HT.

With that budget, I like separates. Too many choices, but about the same price as a hi-end receiver anyways. And you can still add that HT bypass pre later.

Rotel is often spoken of in the same breath with BW. Classe is as well.

Regarding Rotel cdp, just ask your dealer to let you try it out for a couple of days. Maybe after everything else is installed and setup. Then swap out both players and see if its worth it to you.

Did I mention room treatments?

-jostenmeat

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I believe Rotel & B&W are owned by the same company.

 

[edmcanuck]

If you'd spend that kind of money on cables and interconnects, then there's probably not much that advice here can do to help you

At most, cables and interconnects together should cost you less than $300.

 

[Ausfart]

chill

If you'd spend that kind of money on cables and interconnects, then there's probably not much that advice here can do to help you

Dude, chill out. I'm asking for earnest input, not snide condemnation. Get a life.

At most, cables and interconnects together should cost you less than $300.

This is more helpful and is in line with other responses here and in other forums where I've posted my request for input.

 

[shokhead]

I have Nautilus 804s, some Polk outdoor patio speakers on a zone 2, a Harmon Kardon DVD/CD/SACD player, Charter digital cable (not HD), a VCR, IPOD/dock and 30-inch standard tube TV. My 75 Watt, 7.1 channel Harmon Kardon AV 635 receiver will be removed from service due to a processor malfunction. Listening room is about 12x20 feet with speakers along the wide wall facing a 9-foot leather couch and 6-foot leather coffee table, on a wood laminate/concrete slab floor mostly covered by large area rug, with 12 feet of filled book shelves along one short end of the room. I want a major upgrade in high-fidelity stereo sound for music and for movies. Musical taste includes bluegrass, jazz, classical and rock. I have $5,000 to spend.

My favorite shop recommends:

Rotel RB 1080 stereo amp (200 watts, 2 channels) ($999);
Rotel RC-1082 stereo preamp ($1199);
Rotel RCD 1072 HDCD player ($699);
Transparency MusicLink Plus interconnects pr. 1 mtr. ($360);
Transparency MusicWave Plus speaker cables par. 12' ($1010); and
Audio Authority 4x1 component video autoselector 1154A ($239).

Shops says above maximizes hi-fidelity music sound. They analog stereo simplicity of the above set-up will sound significantly better for music than anything at $5k cost involving multi-channel with video switching. I like the promise of a spine tingling musical sound improvement over the old HK set-up but do not like the need for separate video switching device and lack of am/fm tuner.

I wonder if a surround sound receiver (like Rotel RSX 1067) or pre/pro (like Rotel RSP 1069) would not sound equally good for stereo music while simplifying video switching for the above components, giving me am/fm and allowing a simpler future addition of HD TV and surround speakers. If the stereo sound from the recommended Rotel components were sufficiently sweet, my interest in a potential future surround speaker set-up might wane. Even if I never go to surround speakers, I might in the future add a subwoofer to improve deep bass for music and movie effects.

If separate stereo amplifier and stereo preamp would deliver clearly better musical sound than the surround receiver or pre/pro approach, what do people think about the Rotel components my shop recommends versus similar components from Anthem (MCA20 applifier [225 w/2ch]) and TLP1 pre/pro/tuner or AVM30 pre/pro/tuner). Any other recipe for a $5K system to run B&W 804s for music?

Does $1000 for the Transparancy 12-foot speaker cables and another $360 for the Transparancy interconnects make sense? I am willing to believe that cable choice at these prices can make a difference.

Would dropping the $699 Rotel CD player and just continuing to use my Harmon Kardon DVD 47 player degrade the sound audibly? If not, I could throw the $699 at another part of this system.

My long-distance reference is my father's late 1990s all-Mcintosh 150 w/ch ss receiver and CD system driving some giant Italian floor standers. I like the idea of McIntosh but don't think I can afford anything like that to run my 804s.

Your thoughts much appreciated.

Does $1000 for the Transparancy 12-foot speaker cables and another $360 for the Transparancy interconnects make sense? Not to me. I'd use blue jean for everything at alot less $$$. I wouldn't spend 700 bucks on a cd player either, it's not doing enough to spend that much.

 

[Ausfart]

Drive N804s w/Jolida 100 wpc integrated tube amp?

First, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond to my first post. Very helpful, especially re views on cable overkill.

Second, how do you think my N804s would sound with the current Jolida 100 wpc stereo integrated tube amp? That idea arose from the repair shop who declared by Harman Kardon AVR 635 DOA. They suggested buying a 60 wpc Jolida 502B tube integrated, upgrading the tubes and doing a standard $500 modification (total cost about $1500). I found the 100 wpc Jolida on mfgr website and read forum entries on this unit, the 502B, mods, etc.

I would route the Rotel or similar CD player straight into the Jolida. For the price of the Rotel analog stereo preamp recommended by my hifi shop, I could buy mid-priced AV receiver and route all my AV sources (DVD player, VCR, cable, playstation and ipod) through that, with output routed to the Jolida's second input. The AV receiver would provide the convenience remote controlled video/audio switching from all those sources and also provide the power to drive my outdoor speakers.

I am a little scared of tubes. First, I have kids (ages 8+), and the amp will be physically accessible to them. So, the exposed tubes of the 502B seem like a bad idea. The 1000RC's tubes are safe inside a closed metal box.

Second, I wonder about ongoing care and maintenance duties for tubes. Once I get this thing set up, I don't want to have to mess with it very few months. What is tube "biasing" all about, and how often does one need to do it?

Third, I understand that the THD, background noise and other technical specs from the Jolida compare poorly to the specs on the Rotel solid state gear and probably any decent SS. However, I have heard tube gear (not this Jolida) and generally like the warm sound, holographic soundstage and detailed, smooth midrange and treble. I am thinking that the 100 wpc Jolida might make the N804s sound just gorgeous.

Any thoughts about the preceding approach?

 

[shokhead]

I think those 804's would love to have more then 100watts to really sing.

 

[jostenmeat]

If you really have 5k to spend, and really want tubes, there are other, better reputed (arguably) brands of amps out there. Cary, Balanced Audio, Acoustic Research, etc. perhaps Rogue as well.

However, I still stick to my earlier post in this thread. All of this electronics-hunting pales in importance to acoustical treatment. It's a sin not to use some of your healthy budget towards that. Real Traps offers package discounts, and are highly recommended. Shoot them an email, I have, and their advice is helpful. GIK is more affordable to be sure, but typically their fit and finish is not as nice.

If you wanted as many possible options from the get go (surround HT, 2-ch), with your healthy budget, I would consider for instance

- Integra 9.8 HT pre/pro
- 2-ch pre/pro w/ HT bypass
- Amp(s), multi-ch amp of choice

The 2 ch pre/pro's are often tubed, and many find their characteristics best used here rather than in the amp section. Still, Im sure there must be tubed integrateds with HT pass.

Even with my example of one rec above, I still vote you save by going with an integrated amp perhaps, and spending as much, if not more, on treatments as your electronics.

For an example of an affordable hi-fi integrated, you can get the Cambridge 840a for 1k. It will be superceded quite soon, and that's why I think the price is decent. Its a switching amp, class A to B.

Links for you. If curious about Integra + 2 ch, here's a current thread:
2-Channel PreAmp users with Integra 9.8
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1002671

Ask BW owners themselves for their experiences with tube amps:
B&W Owner's Thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755048

good luck.

 

[Ausfart]

How about 75 w/ch of McIntosh tubes?

I realize that I'm all over the place and appreciate everyone's willingness to continue providing input.

What do you think about driving my N804s (the old ones without diamond tweeters) with a used McIntosh MA2275 integrated tube amp with 75 w/2 channels?

My old Harmon Kardon 7-channel receiver had 75 watts and that seemed like plenty for my small room and listening habits.

75 modern McIntosh tube watts sounds intriguing. I really love music with strong female vocals, like Alison Kraus, Emmy Lou Harris, etc. From what I've heard, tubes are terrific for mid-range. I'd think my 804s, with the Kevlar mid-range, would sound fantastic.

In the future, if I found the base punch a little lacking, I could add a ss McIntosh amp and run the 804s woofers off that (they are set up for biwiring).

Thoughts?

 

[mnnc]

I have Nautilus 804s, some Polk outdoor patio speakers on a zone 2, a Harmon Kardon DVD/CD/SACD player, Charter digital cable (not HD), a VCR, IPOD/dock and 30-inch standard tube TV. My 75 Watt, 7.1 channel Harmon Kardon AV 635 receiver will be removed from service due to a processor malfunction. Listening room is about 12x20 feet with speakers along the wide wall facing a 9-foot leather couch and 6-foot leather coffee table, on a wood laminate/concrete slab floor mostly covered by large area rug, with 12 feet of filled book shelves along one short end of the room. I want a major upgrade in high-fidelity stereo sound for music and for movies. Musical taste includes bluegrass, jazz, classical and rock. I have $5,000 to spend.

My favorite shop recommends:

Rotel RB 1080 stereo amp (200 watts, 2 channels) ($999);
Rotel RC-1082 stereo preamp ($1199);
Rotel RCD 1072 HDCD player ($699);
Transparency MusicLink Plus interconnects pr. 1 mtr. ($360);
Transparency MusicWave Plus speaker cables par. 12' ($1010); and
Audio Authority 4x1 component video autoselector 1154A ($239).

Shops says above maximizes hi-fidelity music sound. They analog stereo simplicity of the above set-up will sound significantly better for music than anything at $5k cost involving multi-channel with video switching. I like the promise of a spine tingling musical sound improvement over the old HK set-up but do not like the need for separate video switching device and lack of am/fm tuner.

I wonder if a surround sound receiver (like Rotel RSX 1067) or pre/pro (like Rotel RSP 1069) would not sound equally good for stereo music while simplifying video switching for the above components, giving me am/fm and allowing a simpler future addition of HD TV and surround speakers. If the stereo sound from the recommended Rotel components were sufficiently sweet, my interest in a potential future surround speaker set-up might wane. Even if I never go to surround speakers, I might in the future add a subwoofer to improve deep bass for music and movie effects.

If separate stereo amplifier and stereo preamp would deliver clearly better musical sound than the surround receiver or pre/pro approach, what do people think about the Rotel components my shop recommends versus similar components from Anthem (MCA20 applifier [225 w/2ch]) and TLP1 pre/pro/tuner or AVM30 pre/pro/tuner). Any other recipe for a $5K system to run B&W 804s for music?

Does $1000 for the Transparancy 12-foot speaker cables and another $360 for the Transparancy interconnects make sense? I am willing to believe that cable choice at these prices can make a difference.

Would dropping the $699 Rotel CD player and just continuing to use my Harmon Kardon DVD 47 player degrade the sound audibly? If not, I could throw the $699 at another part of this system.

My long-distance reference is my father's late 1990s all-Mcintosh 150 w/ch ss receiver and CD system driving some giant Italian floor standers. I like the idea of McIntosh but don't think I can afford anything like that to run my 804s.

Your thoughts much appreciated.

Emotiva seperates Amp/s, processor...wait for the new pre-pro next month.

Rega Apollo cd player for about $700 mint/used or a grand new.

Oppo dvd player 981 0r new 983

Signal (Signal Cable) power cables, spkr cables, and interconnects. Don't look elsewhere!!!

You will have a sweeeeeet system. Top notch...and approx a grand leftover! Use that for center, surrounds, HSU sub or SVS sub. You will have spine tingling as you hope for.

 

[Antus]

b&w said they designed their speakers to be driven by SS amp.

if you want to buy a receiver, buy those top end with toroidal transformer. usually only appear on top end from each manufacture. for example, Denon 5308, Marantz 8002

if i were u, i might use some of the money to upgrade the TV.

option1:
Sony 46W LCD ($2000)
Marantz 8002 ($2000) if u need extra power, add Rotel 1080 for front.
the rest for a blue-ray player and cables.

option2:
get a Denon 5308 and call it a day.

option 3: all brysten setup
brysten sp2
brysten 9bsst c-series
(this setup will be slightly over ur budget, and no video processing)

Brysten and Classe are one step above Rotel. i will consider 2 channel Rotel amp is on par with Denon 5308 playing 2 channel.

as everyone else said, don't waste ur money on those super expensive cable.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...get a Denon 5308 and call it a day...

Yeah, I like that too.

Just get this bad boy ($4,200) and call it a day!

 

[BassThatHz]

It sounds like that dealer is trying to rip you off on the cables... but wait, there's more, I'll throw in this bottle of snake oil and some oxyclean, two for the price of three.

I doubt you were seeing the full potential of your N804's with a 75w rec; more like a rough draft copy.

Surround speakers are next to useless, I find they are only good for horror movies if you need to be scared from behind... else forget about it.

I can't stand the music on the radio these days (tuner not needed)... what is that stuff anyway it is like computer generated pop-rap with a bad beat, static injected into the background just to make it louder and a 3 word lyric repeated for 4mins... what is the latest one floating around these days "War remix" of "Until I Stay".

I listen to a LOT of music, ~3068hrs per year. Since I spend so much time listening I am very picky about my audio quality; but on the same note, I'm not going to sell body parts to line the pockets of some dealer/OEM, just to obtain the last 5% either.

The new 804S even when powered with highend Classe gear was not to my liking; the N803 is a better speaker IMHO, a tough call with some hair-splitting involved for sure... I would hazzard a guess that the 804 was maximized to near its full potential.

I have N803's bi-amped with four channels of 120watts from a RMB-1075, its still not enough power... it needs twice that IMO. Even with this modest amp/system, it is clear that the N803's has smoother bass with more headroom and a cleaner mid/treble range in comparison (better crossovers and cabinet space I guess).

The 804S has tighter bass but it and its tweeter is not smooth to me though, its "in your face". I believe the Classe was clearly providing it a wider, more transparent soundstage for it than my rotel; providing more current than those drivers could handle IMO... it sounded like the the little engine that could "I-think-I-can". Maybe is was damaged previously before I demo'ed it?

Maybe the N804 doesn't suffer this, but if it does, then you'd be better off to just selling it, scrap the $1000+ in wires and get a N803 or better.

I don't know what your goal is, but my overall goal is to make the best system I can for the lowest possible price. I want something that's not fatiguing, something that is effortless in everyway and has that "sound"... you know the kind, when you walk into the room and go... "yes that is IT!"

My Yamaha RX-V2500 is the weakest link in my system right now, hence the RSP-1068; I'll see how that pans out over the week or so. The yam is a fatigue generating machine; its not obvious at first but I has finally gotten to me after a year... even in its pure-direct mode it is not enough, It is preventing the "sound" for sure. I'm gonna take it skydiving soon

This is what I currently have:

B&W N803 $2300CAD Used
Rotel RSP-1068 $686CAD Used (Just bought today)
Rotel RMB-1075 $700CAD Used
Velodyne CHT-15 $700CAD Used
Velodyne HGS-10 $650CAD Used
BFD $130 CAD Used
6 Athena AS-F1 $400CAD x 3 New
Yamaha RX-V2500 $250 Used
Wire + interconnect $200CAD x 7 New
Creative X-FI $150CAD New
Total $8166CAD excluding shipping and tax
+
HT/Gaming PC $3070 New (no tax, local purchase)

Grand Total ~12-13k CAD taxed and shipped (est)

You can view it all here, keep in mind the mono-audio, microphone distortions are quite high and youtube re-conversions doesn't help any, it sounds and looks much better in person:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=BassThatHz&page=1

This is my current wish list:
Buy Two RB-1092 or RB-1080 one per N803 ($1-4k used)
Make Two DIY subs: CSS SDX-15 + 1300watt plate amp ($700CAD each)
Sell the CHT-15, RX-V2500 and 4 of the AS-F1's
Buy 1080P Project + HD Player ($2k new)
Buy PS Audio Premier Power Plant ($1100 used)

Perhaps you can learn from my Journey.