and we thought cable break in was nuts ...............

[agarwalro]

If my cable is still tense, I play some Barry White first.

Come on, you're just trying to seduce them. Admit it.

 

[agarwalro]

"a word salad". I shall keep that and add it to the vast library of sayings I keep in my head. Marvelous metaphor

ATLAudio introduced me to 'gish gallop'. Love that one.

 

[NINaudio]

I have actually said that recently here on the forums. If someone cannot explain things simply or succinctly, they're just vomiting up and repeating a word salad.

When people babble on and on I will often say that they have word vomit or verbal diarrhea.

 

[Speedskater]

Go grab your book and re-read chapter 13!

The 2008 book or the 2017 book?

 

[ATLAudio]

The 2008 book or the 2017 book?

Both cover to cover for proper penitence.

 

[KEW]

Frequently asked questions.

Q: Are fuses directional?


A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way.

Was this really published?
So if you and I are facing each other and hold the fuse in between us the correct direction depends on our viewpoint.
Fuse technology so advanced it knows where you are!
Does that mean if I install it from the right side of my amp (and right side of the fuse), but my LP is on the left side (of the projected axis of the fuse) that it then becomes incorrect?
Is this going to f*** with my energy field/aura?
It is already f***ing with my head and I don't even have one!

 

[Bucknekked]

Was this really published?
So if you and I are facing each other and hold the fuse in between us the correct direction depends on our viewpoint.
Fuse technology so advanced it knows where you are!
Does that mean if I install it from the right side of my amp (and right side of the fuse), but my LP is on the left side (of the projected axis of the fuse) that it then becomes incorrect?
Is this going to f*** with my energy field/aura?
It is already f***ing with my head and I don't even have one!

Oh yeah. Its right from their website in the FAQ section for the fuses.

There are so many things wrong with a statement like current flows from left to right I dont know where to begin.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

A $150 fuse might be ridiculous, but I personally don't care how other people spend their money. I honestly don't understand people who do care, it's not like they are buying and it's not like posting here is going to stop someone who is inclined to drop his own money to not do so.

If I did care, I'd be picketing the McLaren dealership on my way home from picketing the Bentley people. Instead, I sit at home and enjoy the system I own.

Not only that, but I am just as guilty as the "fool" who buys such a fuse, because I like to use ceramics at a buck a piece instead of tin at 25c a shot.

Or I use Takman, Mills and PRP resistors in the signal path of DIY builds when I could have used ordinary Vishays like I do outside the signal path for 1/10th the price, or even then, I could have used generic Chinese resistors at 10 for a penny everywhere.

Still, my last "boutique" resistor order for two monoblocks was $10, and that included 10 pieces of each value (I need two) so I can measure and match; I want my monoblocks to operate and sound identical.

I can afford it, which I think is the crux of the situation. In the end it's really no different than someone who can afford it, crazy as they might be, dropping real cash on fuses. Someone could accuse me of spending 350x too much on resistors (0.1 cent each vs 35 cents each). Same topic, different thread. And if they did, it would change my buying habits exactly as much as it would change the habits of someone who actually wants to buy a $150 fuse. Let 'em, it's not my money.

 

[3db]

I understand why one would purchase more expensive electrical components for tighter tolreances, less drift of component values thru a wider temperature range, etc but this has nothing to do with snake oil bull shite which these fraudulent companies are selling. You cannot equate marketing propoganda with behaviour of higher end electrical components. The first is based on lies and misplaced pseudo science, the latter on mainly engineering principles.

A $150 fuse might be ridiculous, but I personally don't care how other people spend their money. I honestly don't understand people who do care, it's not like they are buying and it's not like posting here is going to stop someone who is inclined to drop his own money to not do so.

If I did care, I'd be picketing the McLaren dealership on my way home from picketing the Bentley people. Instead, I sit at home and enjoy the system I own.

Not only that, but I am just as guilty as the "fool" who buys such a fuse, because I like to use ceramics at a buck a piece instead of tin at 25c a shot.

Or I use Takman, Mills and PRP resistors in the signal path of DIY builds when I could have used ordinary Vishays like I do outside the signal path for 1/10th the price, or even then, I could have used generic Chinese resistors at 10 for a penny everywhere.

Still, my last "boutique" resistor order for two monoblocks was $10, and that included 10 pieces of each value (I need two) so I can measure and match; I want my monoblocks to operate and sound identical.

I can afford it, which I think is the crux of the situation. In the end it's really no different than someone who can afford it, crazy as they might be, dropping real cash on fuses. Someone could accuse me of spending 350x too much on resistors (0.1 cent each vs 35 cents each). Same topic, different thread. And if they did, it would change my buying habits exactly as much as it would change the habits of someone who actually wants to buy a $150 fuse. Let 'em, it's not my money.

 

[panteragstk]

I understand why one would purchase more expensive electrical components for tighter tolreances, less drift of component values thru a wider temperature range, etc but this has nothing to do with snake oil bull shite which these fraudulent companies are selling. You cannot equate marketing propoganda with behaviour of higher end electrical components. The first is based on lies and misplaced pseudo science, the latter on mainly engineering principles.

Exactly. It's not that we want to tell them how to spend their money, we don't like the fact that they're essentially being lied to as to the benefits of a product.

 

[agarwalro]

I understand why one would purchase more expensive electrical components for tighter tolreances, less drift of component values thru a wider temperature range, etc but this has nothing to do with snake oil bull shite which these fraudulent companies are selling. You cannot equate marketing propoganda with behaviour of higher end electrical components. The first is based on lies and misplaced pseudo science, the latter on mainly engineering principles.

I would also expect this to give higher MTBF for said components. I'd pay 100x more for a cap if it meant a 25 year life, staying within tolerances, instead of 5. I can't say if this is notional due to generally high quality from reputable manufacturers.

 

[Darenwh]

I sure would not pay any more for a fuse that is less likely to blow if too much current goes through it... Just sayin'...

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I understand why one would purchase more expensive electrical components for tighter tolreances, less drift of component values thru a wider temperature range, etc but this has nothing to do with snake oil bull shite which these fraudulent companies are selling. You cannot equate marketing propoganda with behaviour of higher end electrical components. The first is based on lies and misplaced pseudo science, the latter on mainly engineering principles.

There are many Electronics Engineers who would vehemently disagree that the resistors I chose to use (including the original designer of the product I am building) are necessary or even desirable. In that respect it is exactly the same.

If one purports to save the world from being lied to by marketers, let's just say, you have a lifetime of work ahead of you, and if the idea is to further the public good, you should start with products that generate billions of dollars in "false" revenue from ordinary hard-working families, rather than some boutique supplier with negligible sales and whose customers are likely to be misguided millionaires. Not that they are likely to listen ... but at least it would not be preaching to the converted.

Does anyone honestly think that even one reader of this web forum would consider buying a $150 fuse? The complaints are, in essence, empty air with no audience that is likely to benefit. It would be vastly more effective to make complaints about dubious claims regarding fuses on a forum that The Robb Report* magazine readers are likely to read.

* A single issue ... this is printed paper ... costs $US 108.88, and a subscription is 12 issues a year. 30,000 people subscribe, if you want to do some back-of-the-napkin math about "wasting" what amount of money. One could make a reasonable argument that someone in a position to subscribe would be better off buying $150 fuses ... at least it functions as a fuse, protecting what are likely to be vastly more expensive components.

 

[slipperybidness]

A $150 fuse might be ridiculous, but I personally don't care how other people spend their money. I honestly don't understand people who do care, it's not like they are buying and it's not like posting here is going to stop someone who is inclined to drop his own money to not do so.

If I did care, I'd be picketing the McLaren dealership on my way home from picketing the Bentley people. Instead, I sit at home and enjoy the system I own.

Not only that, but I am just as guilty as the "fool" who buys such a fuse, because I like to use ceramics at a buck a piece instead of tin at 25c a shot.

Or I use Takman, Mills and PRP resistors in the signal path of DIY builds when I could have used ordinary Vishays like I do outside the signal path for 1/10th the price, or even then, I could have used generic Chinese resistors at 10 for a penny everywhere.

Still, my last "boutique" resistor order for two monoblocks was $10, and that included 10 pieces of each value (I need two) so I can measure and match; I want my monoblocks to operate and sound identical.

I can afford it, which I think is the crux of the situation. In the end it's really no different than someone who can afford it, crazy as they might be, dropping real cash on fuses. Someone could accuse me of spending 350x too much on resistors (0.1 cent each vs 35 cents each). Same topic, different thread. And if they did, it would change my buying habits exactly as much as it would change the habits of someone who actually wants to buy a $150 fuse. Let 'em, it's not my money.

The Problem Here:
If you are a noob and don't known better, then this is a problem! The noob gets cheated out of his $, then loses interest in the hobby.

If you know what you are doing, and choose to spend the $ anyway, then that is fine.

 

[killdozzer]

The Problem Here:
If you are a noob and don't known better, then this is a problem! The noob gets cheated out of his $, then loses interest in the hobby.

If you know what you are doing, and choose to spend the $ anyway, then that is fine.

This is the gist of it!!!

 

[Pogre]

Slip,

The Problem Here:
If you are a noob and don't known better, then this is a problem! The noob gets cheated out of his $, then loses interest in the hobby.

If you know what you are doing, and choose to spend the $ anyway, then that is fine.

Slip, this is exactly what happened to me. I bought my first system for this house in '98. Got suckered into buying a couple hundred dollars in rca cables and didn't consider upgrading for 18 years because the cost was so prohibitive.

It wasn't until I joined here that I learned SQ is so much more dependant on speakers than any other component in the system. Good thing I wasn't watching videos like this one before I came here! I could easily have been misled and spent a chunk of my speaker money on cabling again.

 

[slipperybidness]

Slip,

Slip, this is exactly what happened to me. I bought my first system for this house in '98. Got suckered into buying a couple hundred dollars in rca cables and didn't consider upgrading for 18 years because the cost was so prohibitive.

It wasn't until I joined here that I learned SQ is so much more dependant on speakers than any other component in the system. Good thing I wasn't watching videos like this one before I came here! I could easily have been misled and spent a chunk of my speaker money on cabling again.

You know, the "funny" thing is that I don't see this type of purposeful misleading and money grabbing in my other hobbies!

Telescopes/Binos/Astronomy--Well, you get into the spot where the next minor improvement in the optics costs hundreds of dollars more! But, the improvement is there, and you have to ask if it is worth the cost. Often, if you are dealing with an eyepiece for example, it may be that the view isn't necessarily any sharper, but you get a wider field of view. There are great optics available at entry level prices!

Mountain Biking--same story, incremental improvements and perhaps longevity cost more. Great example, I have 2 bikes, 1 has entry level SPD pedals, the other has 2nd from the top XT SPD pedals. The XT pedals are definitely better, feel better, perform better. But, XT costs a little over 2x what the entry level costs. XT is definitely not "twice as good" as the entry level.

But, my point here is that the next level up absolutely performs better, and there is a clear hierarchy! Once you get into the audio hobby, it's no-holds-barred, plenty of BS and snake oil, and a lot of people purposely misleading the ignorant (or they have been so mislead that they take the ignorant along on the ride of ignorance).

You know the common advice here is "upgrade the speakers first", in mountain biking it's "upgrade the wheelset first".

 

[Bucknekked]

You know, the "funny" thing is that I don't see this type of purposeful misleading and money grabbing in my other hobbies!

Telescopes/Binos/Astronomy--Well, you get into the spot where the next minor improvement in the optics costs hundreds of dollars more! But, the improvement is there, and you have to ask if it is worth the cost. Often, if you are dealing with an eyepiece for example, it may be that the view isn't necessarily any sharper, but you get a wider field of view. There are great optics available at entry level prices!

Mountain Biking--same story, incremental improvements and perhaps longevity cost more. Great example, I have 2 bikes, 1 has entry level SPD pedals, the other has 2nd from the top XT SPD pedals. The XT pedals are definitely better, feel better, perform better. But, XT costs a little over 2x what the entry level costs. XT is definitely not "twice as good" as the entry level.

But, my point here is that the next level up absolutely performs better, and there is a clear hierarchy! Once you get into the audio hobby, it's no-holds-barred, plenty of BS and snake oil, and a lot of people purposely misleading the ignorant (or they have been so mislead that they take the ignorant along on the ride of ignorance).

You know the common advice here is "upgrade the speakers first", in mountain biking it's "upgrade the wheelset first".

astronomy is a good compare as a hobby. Plenty geeky. dominated by males. very specialized, perhaps even more specialized and splintered than audio. And its not mainstream now, nor has it ever been widely accepted.

You are correct and I never thought about the topic that in astronomy there aren't these boutique vendors selling pure crap for promise that's impossible to fulfill. I can only postulate that the difference between the two hobbies is personal education. Anybody can buy audio and make a sound. If you just buy a telescope and set it up you would be how surprised how hard it is to see something as big as the moon for more than just a few seconds. in astronomy, most hobbyists have to educate themselves in real science (not psuedo science) because if you dont, you literally can't see s-h-i-t.

In audio, one doesn't have to do a lot of education to make a good sound. If it required a lot of edumication, I probably wouldn't be in audio. I'm glad I can just connect some cables and make great music.

 

[Bucknekked]

T

If one purports to save the world from being lied to by marketers, let's just say, you have a lifetime of work ahead of you,

Johnny2Bad
I'll grant you all your points as true and any other arguments on the subject. You are correct.

None of the jabber on a forum is going to make much of a difference one way or the other. Neither your warnings against us wasting our time nor the warnings from concerned citizens of the forum against the evils of snake oil.

I read here and post here because I enjoy the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, I learn stuff along the way.
I post about snake oil items because it is a fun area to poke fun at. I don't think I'm saving the world.
Enjoying the journey is part of why I take a little time to write small missives .

Occasionally, and I mean very occasionally, someone will post a genuine question about a snake oil gadget.
Looking at their post count its almost always someone that's a newb and they really don't know whether a gadget is genuine or bogus. Some of those newbs can be enlightened and we can help them avoid a purchase and steer the dollars to something more genuine. Some, but not all. Many newbs come here and are smitten with the promises. As Ron White so eloquently quoted "You can't fix stupid".

Your post was a well thought out line of thought. No arguments here.

I'm still going to poke fun at any tinfoil hat crackpot idea that claims to improve an audio system.

 

[3db]

There are many Electronics Engineers who would vehemently disagree that the resistors I chose to use (including the original designer of the product I am building) are necessary or even desirable. In that respect it is exactly the same.

Those engineers who would disagree argue on the point of over engineering which IS different than being lied too by cable manufacturers. Big difference.

If one purports to save the world from being lied to by marketers, let's just say, you have a lifetime of work ahead of you, and if the idea is to further the public good, you should start with products that generate billions of dollars in "false" revenue from ordinary hard-working families, rather than some boutique supplier with negligible sales and whose customers are likely to be misguided millionaires. Not that they are likely to listen ... but at least it would not be preaching to the converted.

Does anyone honestly think that even one reader of this web forum would consider buying a $150 fuse? The complaints are, in essence, empty air with no audience that is likely to benefit. It would be vastly more effective to make complaints about dubious claims regarding fuses on a forum that The Robb Report* magazine readers are likely to read.

I think Pogre answered your question already. There are those audiophiles who can't be taught and its their monetary loss not mine. However If I can prevent even one newbie from wasting their money on useless shite, then I've already done my job. However, I believe that people like me have saved many a newbie from the fraudulent grips of esoteric cable/fuse/outlet manufacturers.

* A single issue ... this is printed paper ... costs $US 108.88, and a subscription is 12 issues a year. 30,000 people subscribe, if you want to do some back-of-the-napkin math about "wasting" what amount of money. One could make a reasonable argument that someone in a position to subscribe would be better off buying $150 fuses ... at least it functions as a fuse, protecting what are likely to be vastly more expensive components.

Except that most publications have now gone to the web. That being said. if you don't feel like you make a difference in the audio world, please don't pooh pooh on those that feel that they do.