William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Mitchibo, on FR alone that looks better to me. Did you do any sweeps with the mains to make sure XO integration was good?
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
I've not yet seen anyone list the filters that they've plugged in to a minidsp. So if you wanted to break that trend, great! Don't need a pic, just type out Frequency-Q-Gain-Type

56 hz, 81 hz, 141 hz (rounded) would be the predicted modes. They are predictions, because rooms have doors and windows which allow the boundaries to flex, lowering the actual. So it needs to be clearly understood exactly what you've already plugged in to the minidsp, to which channel as it effects the measurements you posted. Additionally, do you have multiple couches, or arm chairs? Pillows? Heavy drapes?

Which wall holds the TV? Where are any doorways/windows in relation to that wall? What is the distance from that wall to the Listening Position? How close are the subs to the corners? In order to destructively drive that 20' length mode with 4 subs, knowing the position of the listeners in the room is crucial to applying the correct filters to the correct subs.

The measurement you posted had the first mode centered at 45 hz (20' wall), and is wide enough to stretch 40-50 hz (maybe a tad more), which is a Q (bandwidth) of 11. I don't think these measurements are 1/24 octave so I would recommend taking another measurement, with the speakers to at least 500 hz so we can clearly see the actual modal frequency because it can sharply change the measured Q and Gain of those modes. Seeing higher order modes (by measuring up to or above 500 hz) also helps determine the effectiveness of any filters added based on the attenuation of those modes.
Slow down, sparky.

"The measurement you posted had the first mode centered at 45 hz (20' wall), and is wide enough to stretch 40-50 hz (maybe a tad more), which is a Q (bandwidth) of 11. "

Can you explain this a bit more?
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
It is time consuming and a little tedious sometimes. I spent a fair amount of time nudging things around and doing sweeps. Try everything. You never know what might work best.
I screwed around with moving the subs in and out from the corners, twisting them to fire at each other, then off axis randomly. The measurements did change but not with any constructive or destructive results. I put them back in their original locations which is the best aesthetically anyway so win-win. I hope I can tune them up where they sit.

BTW: you like the Monolith7?
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Slow down, sparky.

"The measurement you posted had the first mode centered at 45 hz (20' wall), and is wide enough to stretch 40-50 hz (maybe a tad more), which is a Q (bandwidth) of 11. "

Can you explain this a bit more?
That is an example of how I learned to look at resonances. Peaks and dips are all resonances, when they can be attributed to room dimensions. The predicted room mode for a 20' wall is 56 hz. (1131/20= 56.55) Doors and windows allow flex in boundaries which can lower the actual resonant frequency (mode) from predicted. Your measurements indicate that resonance is actually most active at 45 hz. That is the center of the peak, which would be the frequency used in creating a DSP Filter.

Next, you have to measure the bandwidth, Q. That is the width of a resonance, measured in Hz. That resonance appears to be 11 hz wide, so Q= 11

Amplitude is how many dB above or below the relative (average dB across operating range) sound the offending frequency is playing. You would apply however many dB is necessary to bring that resonant (mode) frequency back to the relative level.

Post #41 and #99 show steady improvement, but without knowing what inputs you've made, any other suggestions would be guesses.

The other part I mentioned is I do not know what resolution you are measuring in. For bass, it really has to be 1/24 octave with phase, with and without room correction. to ensure you capture the exact amplitude and Q of said resonance. Lower res can mask offending frequencies. So that 45 hz resonance, could be higher in amplitude, or have a different bandwidth than is indicated in that measurement. Being sure of that, saves time on the guessing of amplitude and Q.

Yet another part with multiple subs is ensuring they are all playing at the exact same time. I've only setup a few multi sub rooms, but I've never NOT needed to adjust the delays, even with identical subs with identical cable lengths. And this is where I am in my learning: I do not know how to confirm subs that are not playing together in measurements.

For that, I listen. I use music with strong punchy drum playing (Rush) and really strap in for critical listening. Turning my head side to side (intramural cross correlation - your ears are not symmetrical, which means your own physiology can interfere with how and when you hear certain frequencies) and moving between seats I listen for subs that can be easily located (bass is omni directional, you should not be able to locate the source of the bass, if you can, it's too loud) and try to achieve the best balance at all seats. The delay of each sub should be set so that when a drum should sound snappy, it does. It's immediate, and does not rumble or resonate.

*Disclaimer: in my experience, the Q being measured in single Hz only seems to apply to frequencies within the subs operating range. Minidsp can be used between preamp and separate amp for passive speakers as well. Subwoofers have circuits to protect them from being over driven, where passive speakers do not. Anyone applying my advice about treating subwoofer frequencies to higher frequencies should be aware that they need to be certain of what they are doing as their passive speakers will not be protected from being over driven if the amplitude of any frequency above the subwoofer, is increased.
 
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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
In anticipation of having to plot new ones with the minidsp in the loop, I dug out some of the old plots to have them ready for comparisons. I am not sure if they are the latest greatest but will have to make do for now as I am too lazy to do anything except reading. I did send some of them to SVS for comments and they approved. Given the reasonable results, I doubted minidsp/REW can improve much, except perhaps removing that big dip at about 50 Hz created by Audyssey. Now that I see Pogre happy with the improvements he managed to get, I am much more hopeful. In fact, my objective is to achieve +/- 2 to 2.5 dB, 16 to 150 Hz.

ATL gave me the idea to play with the distance/delay, I thought they may allow me to tame the 50 Hz dip but now I am just going to wait for the mini.

Just got a notice from FedEx that they tried to deliver it at 1:00 pm but I wasn't home to pay the import duty. Now I have to wait until next Tuesday, more time read the manual.:(

View attachment 22111
Provide all the details on any inputs you've made, the dimensions of your room, placement of subs and their relation to the LP. Would be useful to know distance from walls to mic, as that distance will measure as a dip in the frequency response. The wavelength matching distance will cancel out (1131fps/12 feet= 94 hz, for example) Looks like you're using the correct resolution. With your stated goal, I would include measurements up to 1khz so we can confirm the effectiveness of DSP inputs to the subs, with how well higher order reflections are eliminated.

I made a comment in my above post about setting delay. If you find something else that works for you, please share!
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
@PENG

So what benefit did you see from adjusting the AVR distance settings? It works very well for me with a dip near the crossover. I adjust one sub about a foot or two from post Audyssey, and it smooths it out quite favorably for me. Once you get your MiniDSP you can adjust it from that instead of the AVR, but the results are basically the same.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I screwed around with moving the subs in and out from the corners, twisting them to fire at each other, then off axis randomly. The measurements did change but not with any constructive or destructive results. I put them back in their original locations which is the best aesthetically anyway so win-win. I hope I can tune them up where they sit.

BTW: you like the Monolith7?
I love my monolith. Not because of any perceived improvement in sq, but it has gobs of power and handles my towers effortlessly.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG

So what benefit did you see from adjusting the AVR distance settings? It works very well for me with a dip near the crossover. I adjust one sub about a foot or two from post Audyssey, and it smooths it out quite favorably for me. Once you get your MiniDSP you can adjust it from that instead of the AVR, but the results are basically the same.
I was going to try that on the AVR but then I decided to get the mini. It should be here next Tuesday and then I will try different things including the distance as suggested.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
I love my monolith. Not because of any perceived improvement in sq, but it has gobs of power and handles my towers effortlessly.
And teaches your tribe simple tools so you can go take back your water hole.

Sorry, couldn't help it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Provide all the details on any inputs you've made, the dimensions of your room, placement of subs and their relation to the LP. Would be useful to know distance from walls to mic, as that distance will measure as a dip in the frequency response. The wavelength matching distance will cancel out (1131fps/12 feet= 94 hz, for example) Looks like you're using the correct resolution. With your stated goal, I would include measurements up to 1khz so we can confirm the effectiveness of DSP inputs to the subs, with how well higher order reflections are eliminated.

I made a comment in my above post about setting delay. If you find something else that works for you, please share!
It is rectangular, about 18.5X12X8ft, but not exactly rectangular because in the middle of the long wall there is a 4X7 ft bay window.

I really like your post#106, very easy to understand, but how come you define the Q differently? I was going to read the minidsp manual but keep procrastinating so far, will definitely do it before Tuesday, have to..:D
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
That is an example of how I learned to look at resonances. Peaks and dips are all resonances, when they can be attributed to room dimensions. The predicted room mode for a 20' wall is 56 hz. (1131/20= 56.55) Doors and windows allow flex in boundaries which can lower the actual resonant frequency (mode) from predicted. Your measurements indicate that resonance is actually most active at 45 hz. That is the center of the peak, which would be the frequency used in creating a DSP Filter.

Next, you have to measure the bandwidth, Q. That is the width of a resonance, measured in Hz. That resonance appears to be 11 hz wide, so Q= 11

Amplitude is how many dB above or below the relative (average dB across operating range) sound the offending frequency is playing. You would apply however many dB is necessary to bring that resonant (mode) frequency back to the relative level.

Post #41 and #99 show steady improvement, but without knowing what inputs you've made, any other suggestions would be guesses.

The other part I mentioned is I do not know what resolution you are measuring in. For bass, it really has to be 1/24 octave to ensure you capture the exact amplitude and Q of said resonance. Lower res can mask offending frequencies. So that 45 hz resonance, could be higher in amplitude, or have a different bandwidth than is indicated in that measurement. Being sure of that, saves time on the guessing of amplitude and Q.

Yet another part with multiple subs is ensuring they are all playing at the exact same time. I've only setup a few multi sub rooms, but I've never NOT needed to adjust the delays, even with identical subs with identical cable lengths. And this is where I am in my learning: I do not know how to confirm subs that are not playing together in measurements.

For that, I listen. I use music with strong punchy drum playing (Rush) and really strap in for critical listening. Turning my head side to side (intramural cross correlation - your ears are not symmetrical, which means your own physiology can interfere with how and when you hear certain frequencies) and moving between seats I listen for subs that can be easily located (bass is omni directional, you should not be able to locate the source of the bass, if you can, it's too loud) and try to achieve the best balance at all seats. The delay of each sub should be set so that when a drum should sound snappy, it does. It's immediate, and does not rumble or resonate.

*Disclaimer: in my experience, the Q being measured in single Hz only seems to apply to frequencies within the subs operating range. Minidsp can be used between preamp and separate amp for passive speakers as well. Subwoofers have circuits to protect them from being over driven, where passive speakers do not. Anyone applying my advice about treating subwoofer frequencies to higher frequencies should be aware that they need to be certain of what they are doing as their passive speakers will not be protected from being over driven if the amplitude of any frequency above the subwoofer, is increased.
I was thinking of subscribing to this Thread, but your post here made it a must do. Thank -you. I've bought a Mic and installed REW on a small PC I built (another Hobby) some time ago. I was toying with the thought of getting a Mini DSP, but never understood how the DSP filters are created, and thought it may be too complicated for me. But your explanation makes it sound less daunting. Well done! ;)
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
Ji
I was thinking of subscribing to this Thread, but your post here made it a must do. Thank -you. I've bought a Mic and installed REW on a small PC I built (another Hobby) some time ago. I was toying with the thought of getting a Mini DSP, but never understood how the DSP filters are created, and thought it may be too complicated for me. But your explanation makes it sound less daunting. Well done! ;)
Jim, if buffoon like me can get by with it (and tons of help in this forum) then try it. Its a fascinating study as what sound looks like as well. One of the best audio tools I have.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
It is rectangular, about 18.5X12X8ft, but not exactly rectangular because in the middle of the long wall there is a 4X7 ft bay window.

I really like your post#106, very easy to understand, but how come you define the Q differently? I was going to read the minidsp manual but keep procrastinating so far, will definitely do it before Tuesday, have to..:D

18.5' = 61 hz 2nd order= 122 hz 3rd = 183 hz 4th (because we're below transition, but I'll stop here till you confirm with measurements and, yes, actual will likely be lower with the bay window) 244 hz

12' = 94 hz (you get the logarithmic pattern above, so I'll repeat after measurements)
8' = 141 hz

Q can mean a lot of things, unfortunately. Just have to learn how it applies, when it applies. The manual is helpful with operations, but I don't recall seeing this information contained within. It is complex, and I'm sure plenty of people have used their DSP on passive speakers to ill effect.

Also, I updated my post in bold to mention the need to include phase data with measurements. With and without room correction is ideal. Crap. I need to add that too I think.... And thank you!
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I was thinking of subscribing to this Thread, but your post here made it a must do. Thank -you. I've bought a Mic and installed REW on a small PC I built (another Hobby) some time ago. I was toying with the thought of getting a Mini DSP, but never understood how the DSP filters are created, and thought it may be too complicated for me. But your explanation makes it sound less daunting. Well done! ;)
It's a lot of information to absorb! This thread is called 'Graphs from REW' so I do think anyone can post up their response graphs!

Again, I do NOT recommend treating anything but room induced modes. You shouldn't arbitrarily apply boost, you're not 'correcting' anything if the sub measures well in a ground plane test. Location, location, location. Inches matter, especially in corners (I listen to familiar music while I move them). Otherwise you could end up needing more/different subs to satisfy a couch.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
It's a lot of information to absorb! This thread is called 'Graphs from REW' so I do think anyone can post up their response graphs!

Again, I do NOT recommend treating anything but room induced modes. You shouldn't arbitrarily apply boost, you're not 'correcting' anything if the sub measures well in a ground plane test. Location, location, location. Inches matter, especially in corners (I listen to familiar music while I move them). Otherwise you could end up needing more/different subs to satisfy a couch.
That's what I did, and Mitch did too. We (Mitch, Grant and I) were in chat all morning while he got everything set up and took some measurements

My first sweeps were with no eq whatsoever. From there I moved some stuff around, did a sweep, move a little more, 'nother sweep, etc., and that by itself actually made a very significant improvement. I didn't start applying filters until I got it as good as I could by messing with placement. After that is when I applied rew's filters. Just did a little more with it this morning myself.
9-02 Tweaks.jpg

No smoothing. I've been sitting here listening and playing with the distance settings in my avr.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
18.5' = 61 hz 2nd order= 122 hz 3rd = 183 hz 4th (because we're below transition, but I'll stop here till you confirm with measurements and, yes, actual will likely be lower with the bay window) 244 hz

12' = 94 hz (you get the logarithmic pattern above, so I'll repeat after measurements)
8' = 141 hz

Q can mean a lot of things, unfortunately. Just have to learn how it applies, when it applies. The manual is helpful with operations, but I don't recall seeing this information contained within. It is complex, and I'm sure plenty of people have used their DSP on passive speakers to ill effect.

Also, I updated my post in bold to mention the need to include phase data with measurements. With and without room correction is ideal. Crap. I need to add that too I think.... And thank you!
Thanks again for you help, to me definition of Q factor as in Physics and electrical theory should not changed though, it should just be fc/Delta f

delta f being the bandwidth.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks again for you help, to me definition of Q factor as in Physics and electrical theory should not changed though, it should just be fc/Delta f

delta f being the bandwidth.
I've not given my text books enough time yet... trying to give myself a crash course, but too many different things going on at one time. I am not a good multi tasker!
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
That's what I did, and Mitch did too. We (Mitch, Grant and I) were in chat all morning while he got everything set up and took some measurements

My first sweeps were with no eq whatsoever. From there I moved some stuff around, did a sweep, move a little more, 'nother sweep, etc., and that by itself actually made a very significant improvement. I didn't start applying filters until I got it as good as I could by messing with placement. After that is when I applied rew's filters. Just did a little more with it this morning myself.
View attachment 22133
No smoothing. I've been sitting here listening and playing with the distance settings in my avr.
This looks pretty darn good, especially w/o smoothing. Looks like you're moving along just fine.
 
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