How does this forum think about objectivity in audio?

[christoffeldg]

So, you would buy a dsp before getting better speakers to improve on sq? That's just plain silly.

And if someone can't hear the difference between a budget satellite and a high end tower, then they would be very happy for very little money. You have a preference for Lyngdorf's dsp and room correction. Great. I happen to love what Audyssey does for my room.

I'll ask again, what if someone (or more) people were to prefer Audyssey over room perfect? I suppose that would mean that the 4300 is superior to the Lyngdorf then, right?

Why would they be happy with very little money?

If the budget satellites would be very wanted/preferred then their prices would rise above to what the tower costs so the amount of money you pay for would be the same. They would not be budget much longer and the towers would lose their value. And you seem to be avoiding the question, you speak of preference but you're just using two weights here.

Audyssey is not capable in doing what RP does in optimizing the audio quality for stereo.

 

[lovinthehd]

Audyssey is not capable in doing what RP does in optimizing the audio quality for stereo.

Great, post up the links showing that.

 

[christoffeldg]

I was more asking how you compared the two different units using the same speakers and level matched with quick switching (and blinded preferably) and whether you setup Audyssey using only the two speakers.

You get the amp free when you buy Room Perfect that way as opposed to a stand-alone unit?

I configured Audyssey for surround, I did not try for two speakers.

And yes I tried multiple inputs with quick switching between them. The examples I gave were the different sources I used.

Great, post up the links showing that.

It is not about having links, it is about having the equipment and being able to compare and see it for myself.

 

[christoffeldg]

So, you would buy a dsp before getting better speakers to improve on sq? That's just plain silly.

Also, one last point on this.

I did buy vastly better speakers before getting the Lyngdorf. I can tell you that buying the DSP did more to my sound quality than the speakers did. Apparently I wasn't able to get the maximum out of my previous set and only noticed after I bought the Lyngdorf.

Not that I am dissapointed with what I have now, just not very cost efficient.

 

[christoffeldg]

You get the amp free when you buy Room Perfect that way as opposed to a stand-alone unit?

I don't understand what you mean with this honestly.

 

[lovinthehd]

I configured Audyssey for surround, I did not try for two speakers.

And yes I tried multiple inputs with quick switching between them. The examples I gave were the different sources I used.


It is not about having links, it is about having the equipment and being able to compare and see it for myself.

You didn't compare level matched amplifier output, and compared a surround vs stereo room eq....

So you just prefer your subjectivity and want to discuss it in terms of objectivity?

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't understand what you mean with this honestly.

You said one would buy the amp just to get the dsp....there is a stand-alone box for the REQ so I was inferring that the stand-alone box costs the same, thus the amp being free...just a play on words.

 

[Pogre]

It is not about having links, it is about having the equipment and being able to compare and see it for myself.

Sure, but it'd be nice if you could back up your experience with a link or something showing a correlation. Guys like you, I'd love to see in a dbt. For some reason tho, guys like you never do it, so we're stuck with subjective anecdotal preferences.

 

[christoffeldg]

In all honesty, when I said that there was absence of objectivity. I meant the total disregard of the DSP in the discussion of the value of an amp and the impact this has on audio quality.

The Audyssey vs RP discussion is something different, however the comparison is very odd. If you would hear the difference yourself I doubt this discussion would even take place. There's a very wide gap in quality there that is very self explanatory. It's like comparing, as I mentioned, a small satellite with an expensive tower. If you're oblivious of what's better, I'm sure that satellite is great for you, more power to you.

 

[Pogre]

Why would they be happy with very little money?

If the budget satellites would be very wanted/preferred then their prices would rise above to what the tower costs so the amount of money you pay for would be the same. They would not be budget much longer and the towers would lose their value. And you seem to be avoiding the question, you speak of preference but you're just using two weights here.

Lol. What?

I didnt say everyone. I said If a person prefers satellites he'll be very happy for very little money. What you bring up kind of applies to your Lyngdorf tho. Inflated pricing for not really that much (if any) improvement in sound quality. Especially to those who might be more susceptible to the placebo effect. It's all in the marketing.

Audyssey is not capable in doing what RP does in optimizing the audio quality for stereo.

...And you know this how?

What question am I not answering? I've asked you the same one twice.

 

[Pogre]

In all honesty, when I said that there was absence of objectivity. I meant the total disregard of the DSP in the discussion of the value of an amp and the impact this has on audio quality.

The Audyssey vs RP discussion is something different, however the comparison is very odd. If you would hear the difference yourself I doubt this discussion would even take place. There's a very wide gap in quality there that is very self explanatory. It's like comparing, as I mentioned, a small satellite with an expensive tower. If you're oblivious of what's better, I'm sure that satellite is great for you, more power to you.

I have an idea... If you want to discuss objectivity how about not opening with something that is very subjective and prone to personal preference?

 

[christoffeldg]

Lol. What?

I didnt say everyone. I said If a person prefers satellites he'll be very happy for very little money. What you bring up kind of applies to your Lyngdorf tho. Inflated pricing for not really that much (if any) improvement in sound quality. Especially to those who might be more susceptible to the placebo effect. It's all in the marketing.

And you know this how exactly? You seem to be a pro at measuring with two different weights. You're not giving any counter argument whatsoever, and instead you are trying to insult me?

 

[TLS Guy]

Obviously if you are comparing amps with auto Eq there will be differences. I will put it out they they are all lousy and I would not use any of them. There is a massive voodoo quotient with all these Eq systems. I don't use them period.

The fact is that these systems I believe are doing a lousy job of trying to correct speaker problems.

I want my amps as far as possible to be straight wires with gain and reliable to boot.

Good speakers in most rooms do NOT need any Eq period.

 

[christoffeldg]

Obviously if you are comparing amps with auto Eq there will be differences. I will put it out they they are all lousy and I would not use any of them. There is a massive voodoo quotient with all these Eq systems. I don't use them period.

The fact is that these systems I believe are doing a lousy job of trying to correct speaker problems.

I want my amps as far as possible to be straight wires with gain and reliable to boot.

Good speakers in most rooms do NOT need any Eq period.

It would be interesting to let you hear the difference and ask your opinion. My speakers are no slouch, Bowers and Wilkins 802 D3 and it's remarkable how much they improve the clarity of the sound while still keeping the integrity.

 

[Pogre]

And you know this how exactly? You seem to be a pro at measuring with two different weights. You're not giving any counter argument whatsoever, and instead you are trying to insult me?

My apologies, but I suspect English isn't your first language? Some of your replies are confusing and I don't recall insulting you?

 

[everettT]

My post on page one isn't really relevant as the scotch made me pass over the dsp aspect. On that note sorry

 

[Bucknekked]

I own a Denon X4300H with Audyssey XT32 for AVR and the Lyngdorf TDAI 2170. There's a very big difference in quality between both. The DSP is by far better on the TDAI for stereo and really does improve the sound a lot. Also the background noise is very different, this is especially apparent when connecting the Lyngdorf to the AVR's pre-out with an analog cable.

christoffeldg:
Welcome to the AH and I hope you enjoy lively discussions. I just read this entire thread and I think its starting to get wrapped around the axle a bit. After about 10 replies, that is inevitable.

I own a Denon x4200w AVR. In several of your replies, I see you mention background noise as a problem and a distinction. On my own x4200w, there is no background noise. I operate in a near field sound setup and if there was background noise, foreground noise, or noise in the attic, I'd hear it since I'm practically sitting next to my speakers. I hear no noise: just music. If there's no music: there's no sound.

Is there a difference with the Audessey turned on and off? Yes. I would be terribly disappointed if my room correction software didn't do anything audible. Some days I run in pure direct mode: no DSP at all. Having my DSP on or off changes how the music sounds: but it doesn't have anything to do with this "background noise" you refer to. I don't have background noise that's audible.

@TLS Guy put in a post on your topic. So did @PENG . Between those two fellows there is more concrete knowledge and experience with amplifiers than any pair of voices I could name. You may not know them because you are new to the AH. Others here know them however. I think what they've posted is pretty solid information. If you disagree with their viewpoints, you are welcome to do so. You are entitled to an opinion. I'm gonna go with TLS_Guy and Peng on this one.

 

[christoffeldg]

My apologies, but I suspect English isn't your first language? Some of your replies are confusing and I don't recall insulting you?

You are saying that I am susceptible to the placebo effect, and have bought into an inflated price for barely any (if any) improvement in sound quality? Or how should I understand what you wrote?

christoffeldg:
Welcome to the AH and I hope you enjoy lively discussions. I just read this entire thread and I think its starting to get wrapped around the axle a bit. After about 10 replies, that is inevitable.

I own a Denon x4200w AVR. In several of your replies, I see you mention background noise as a problem and a distinction. On my own x4200w, there is no background noise. I operate in a near field sound setup and if there was background noise, foreground noise, or noise in the attic, I'd hear it since I'm practically sitting next to my speakers. I hear no noise: just music. If there's no music: there's no sound.

Is there a difference with the Audessey turned on and off? Yes. I would be terribly disappointed if my room correction software didn't do anything audible. Some days I run in pure direct mode: no DSP at all. Having my DSP on or off changes how the music sounds: but it doesn't have anything to do with this "background noise" you refer to. I don't have background noise that's audible.

@TLS Guy put in a post on your topic. So did @PENG . Between those two fellows there is more concrete knowledge and experience with amplifiers than any pair of voices I could name. You may not know them because you are new to the AH. Others here know them however. I think what they've posted is pretty solid information. If you disagree with their viewpoints, you are welcome to do so. You are entitled to an opinion. I'm gonna go with TLS_Guy and Peng on this one.

I'm sorry, can you point exactly to where I and TLS_Guy and/or Peng are in a dissagreement? I don't exactly see what post you're targetting when saying that.

The background noise has nothing to do with the DSP and is actually because of the digital design of the amp and keeping the signal digital end to end it's keeping the interference to a minimum, removing the background noise. Just try turning your speakers on, holding your head very close and you should hear the background noise on the 4300h. It may seem quiet, but it makes the sound less relaxed (more tense?) when music is playing. If you compare it to the output of the Lyngdorf it's apparent.

For me it's something that makes an obvious difference when switching between the AVR and the Lyngdorf.

 

[Pogre]

You are saying that I am susceptible to the placebo effect, and have bought into an inflated price for barely any (if any) improvement in sound quality? Or how should I understand what you wrote?

To be fair, we're all susceptible to it. I'm not saying I'm immune. And your speaker comparison went right over my head.

I'm talking about preferences. Preferences are personal. What sounds good to you might sound nails on a chalk board to someone else. I might find rp completely sucks in my room. I might be so Audyssey placebo'd out that if even if it DID sound better I wouldn't hear it. That could be my preference and no amount of anecdotal stories of experiences from someone else will change my mind. Does that mean Lyngdorf sucks? No. It means I prefer my rc over yours. How do you quantify that?

 

[KEW]

You are saying that I am susceptible to the placebo effect, and have bought into an inflated price for barely any (if any) improvement in sound quality?

I don't know if he said you are susceptible to the placebo effect, but I will.
If you are human, you are subject to the placebo effect.
You may think you are as repeatable as measurement instrumentation, but our human perceptions are influenced by mood, energy level, hormones, anticipation, expectation, and so forth.
To believe otherwise is the epitome of naivety!