How Many Watts am I using?

Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I

He describes the details on his website http://www.cordellaudio.com/instrumentation/power_level_meter.shtml

I don't propose that Bucknekked go build one of Cordell's meters.
The meter is an interesting read and proposition.
If I could find some cool looking meters, like the ones that McIntosh uses, I'd be up for trying to make a set. If I could get MrBoat to help with the metal work perhaps. I have no idea what the costs would be, but the concept is interesting to me. Thank you for the article and reference. Most interesting
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I have seen a couple of suggestions for adjusting my speaker placement. Not sure why that came up in this thread, but its a valid suggestion. Here's the deal though, my room is a cube: 10x10x10. If you lay that out on the ground, you will immediately find out many options employed in larger spaces just aren't available here. My Klipsch speakers get boomy and the stereo image gets flat as a pancake if I place them close to the walls. Also, if close to the corners, that boomy bass thing happens.

That drives me away from the back wall and side walls as far as I can get. At the other end of the room, I can only put my listening chair just so far back. If I'm too close to the back, I hit a node where there's no bass at all. Scoot forward a bit, and the bass comes back.

I have taken the "golden triangle" thing and moved the speakers all the way from the corners (not good) in small increments all the way to where they are now and then some non symmetric placement as well. For a small room, there are a lot of variations to try. I spent a fair amount of time, days actually, experimenting with not only placement, but height and toe in (or toe out) as well.

After all that moving and shakin', I ended up where I am now. When I crank back the home theater listening recliner, my feet are actually between the speakers. I have a near perfect (to my humble and care worn ears) stereo sound field that is very pleasing. The downside is the sweet spot is very small.

I hope when the Salks arrive I can do some more experimenting (for sure) and get them pushed back and further apart. The only question will be : do I buy a new amplifier just because I want one?
Since all of this relates to sound quality, it matters. Your room being a cube doesn't help, either. If you haven't done anything to absorb some of the sound, I would highly recommend that, too. Small rooms have issues that don't exist in larger ones and in a cube, the room modes coincide, causing additional problems.

If you haven't used Room EQ Wizard (AKA REW), you might want to download it and look at he tool for modeling speaker placement. It allows for lateral and vertical placement, number of speakers, subwoofer(s) in 3d and shows a predicted response. It's an interesting way to experiment without needing to buy a lot of stuff that might not work, might be expensive and might not meet with approval from The War Department.

I used REW when I came to the conclusion that I really hated the sound of my system and I wanted to do something about it. Actually, hate is too strong- I was annoyed by the cancellations that caused me to sense a strong pressure difference when I moved to one side or the other. I couldn't find a spot where I really liked the sound of the low end and when I looked at the response in REW, I saw a big suck-out in the mid-bass. I had made some acoustical panels for a job and kept the leftovers, so I watched the screen as I moved one into place, followed by another, and another, etc. Eventually, I no longer had the suck-out and I immediately had a brand new system- huge (yuge), tremendous difference. However, that wasn't the end of the exploration. Something still wasn't right, so I eventually marked the existing locations and measured the distance from each speaker to the back wall and found the angle to my listening position, then made them equal. My speakers aren't on the centerline in the room, so that had eliminated one problem but they really came to life when I hit the sweet spot. I found this by setting the balance control to one side and listening to that speaker, noting any small differences (and large) that I heard. I kept REW running and watched the response and avoided any locations that caused deviations from smooth/flat and repeated this for the other side,stopping to listen many times before setting the balance to the middle. I used green easy-peel painter's tape to mark the speaker's corners and made some small tweaks before deciding to spend some time with the speakers in that position.

My sofa is against the back wall, but I move around and listen for differences in the sound- the low end is much more even throughout the room and I haven't used my subwoofer in years. I can feel the bass in the floor and through the sofa cushion at times but, having done car audio for a long time, earthquake-type bass neither impresses me nor is it what I want. I find that I'm far less neurotic about the low end, now that I don't use a sub, even though the low end starts to roll off at 38Hz.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Swerd
So you're saying there's a chance I might need a new amplifier? Bless you my son.
"A chance you might need a new amplifier" would be, in my opinion, wording it a bit strongly. I'd rather say only that my own thinking had been "get just enough power but not more" until I saw Cordell's demonstration and changed my mind. (Bob Cordell is an EE who at one time in his career had real experience with audio amplifier design. He wrote a text book on the subject http://www.cordellaudio.com/book/.)

The difference between SongTowers and my old JBL speakers was very large. The difference between SongTowers driven by a 70 wpc AVR and an external 200 wpc amp was much less noticeable. Its far better to spend money on high quality speakers than on bigger amps.
The meter is an interesting read and proposition.
If I could find some cool looking meters, like the ones that McIntosh uses, I'd be up for trying to make a set.
Those silly meters are all for show. High power peaks in music (those single snare drum thwacks) are so quick to start & stop that big analog meters could be too slow to react. LED indicators would be much more likely to show something approaching real power use. Bob Cordell recommends LED clip indicator lights on an amp, but not meters.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Wow, I normally agree with you but not this time, not even close, may be 10%..:D:D
This is why I should avoid posting on 1hr of sleep.

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
If you haven't used Room EQ Wizard (AKA REW), you might want to download it and look at he tool for modeling speaker placement. It allows for lateral and vertical placement, number of speakers, subwoofer(s) in 3d and shows a predicted response. It's an interesting way to experiment without needing to buy a lot of stuff that might not work, might be expensive and might not meet with approval from The War Department.
highfigh,
Great minds think alike! In this case, I'm thinking just like you. :D My very first post on the AH was to introduce my room and my questions about how to improve it. shadyj jumped right in, in a pleasant way, and explained REW to me and what I should do with it. Including buying a new measurement microphone. I took his suggestions and we spent a couple of weeks trading messages and updating measurements etc etc.

I am a convert to REW and measuring your room and trying to be as data driven as possible for conversations with others. Listening can be highly subjective, but to talk with others its best to have as much objective information as you can muster and REW will indeed do that. We traded notes and I think I got my room/speakers sounding as good as they are going to without a hardware change. I ordered a pair of Salk Songtowers after the discussion as the best way to make a real improvement in my sound.

A cube has limitations as you mentioned. REW, shadyj and swerd helped me figure out where I was in relation to problems and how best to solve them. I am still awaiting my Salk Songtowers. I started this "how many watts am I burning " thread to help me understand power requirements. Not so much for my current speakers, but so if I need anything I can have it in place for my Songtowers.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Those silly meters are all for show. High power peaks in music (those single snare drum thwacks) are so quick to start & stop that big analog meters could be too slow to react. LED indicators would be much more likely to show something approaching real power use. Bob Cordell recommends LED clip indicator lights on an amp, but not meters.
At least you let me down gently. :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
my speakers are supposed to be 8 ohms. I don't know anything different.
My new Salks are going to come in between 4 and 6 ohms and I will cross that bridge when they arrive.
If the impedance is between 4 and 6 ohm, once you know what the nominal impedance is, you can use the table below to find out how many dB to deduct from their XdB/2.83V/1m sensitivity spec to get the equivalent sensitivity in YdB/1W/1m. You should first ask Sallk Sound whether their specified XdB sensitivity is for 2.83V or 1W. I cannot tell from their website because it just say "sensitivity 88 dB, average impedance 6 ohm", that's for the Song Tower.

If the spec is based on 1W/1m then there is nothing to deduct. The table is developed using the formula:

Power, P = V^2/Z, and Change in dB from power increase over the ref power, Pr = log(P/Pr), in this case ref power Pr=1W.

Impedance, Z (Ohms) 6.00 5.75 5.50 5.25 5.00 4.75 4.50 4.25 4.00
Power, P (W) 1.33 1.39 1.46 1.53 1.60 1.69 1.78 1.88 2.00
Sensitivity to deduct (dB) 1.25 1.44 1.63 1.83 2.05 2.27 2.50 2.75 3.02

Now, if you really want to determine the sensitivity of your speakers and then project the power you need/use, I suggest you do your measurement like the way the NRC does theirs, except you will be doing it in your home instead of in an anechoic chamber.

http://soundstageaccess.com/features/2008_02_01.htm
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Swerd
So you're saying there's a chance I might need a new amplifier? Bless you my son.
I'd love an excuse to add more power. I am not wasteful, but, I am slobbering over more power.
If this exercize justifies a new amp, I know just where I'd go. If it doesn't justify one, but does leave the door open for one, I'm just as happy.
I would say based on your initial measurement results, not a chance! I know the way you did it, the results wouldn't be accurate, but my educated guess is that you were within +/- 3dB of reality. So unless you really listen at well above reference spl, there is little chance you need a bigger amp. Just in case I may be missing something important, what kind of amp are you using now?

It seems that Klipsch speaker owners is receptive to convincing themselves that regardless of their speaker's exceptionally high sensitivity figures, they need bigger amps because of Klipsch allegedly inflated the sensitivity specs, and they have impedance dips. The fact is, when you are dealing with specs like 94dB to 101dB @1W/1m, those speakers, especially the big towers, can still produce painfully loud spl in small to medium large rooms sitting 3-5m even if you assume the combined effect of lower than published nominal impedance and inflated sensitivity figures.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I would say based on your initial measurement results, not a chance! I know the way you did it, the results wouldn't be accurate, but my educated guess is that you were within +/- 3dB of reality. So unless you really listen at well above reference spl, there is little chance you need a bigger amp. Just in case I may be missing something important, what kind of amp are you using now?
Peng
Right now I have a Denon AVR 591. Its supposed to be 75wpc, both driven, in to 8 ohms and 125wpc, both driven, in to 4 ohms. The way they list it, they try very hard to imply its 125wpc for all 5 channels all the time, but I don't think that's correct. Reading carefully, I think the lower number is the only one that applies to me right now with the Klipsch. When the Songtowers arrive, the higher output power rating may apply.

I agree with your assessment: I probably don't need a bigger amp. Need is a relative term. I have a budget that will sustain an Emotiva A300 that I can run off the pre-amps of my Denon. But need is a funny term. Intellectually, I understand I don't need one. Emotionally, my heart tells me it certainly wants one.
Its one of the valuable features of AH: other people facing the same temptations can help me out.

My listening habits are pretty much what I described and measured in the thread. Most of the time, I listen between 75db and 80db. That's my usual level for most jazz recordings, piano, and instrumental pieces.
I will knock it up to 90db for rock music and when I'm feeling pretty impressed with myself. But unless I'm really feeling like a concert experience, I don't jack the volume knob up much higher than that. I think that's because the Klipsch speakers at 5ft of distance just aren't pleasant at volumes higher than that.

What the concert level volume sounds like will be one of the things I'm most looking forward to with the Salk Songtowers. I'm well acquainted with the Klipsch. I'm looking forward to the Salks.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I spoke too soon, now I think you probably do need an amp.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Peng
Right now I have a Denon AVR 591. Its supposed to be 75wpc, both driven, in to 8 ohms and 125wpc, both driven, in to 4 ohms. The way they list it, they try very hard to imply its 125wpc for all 5 channels all the time, but I don't think that's correct. Reading carefully, I think the lower number is the only one that applies to me right now with the Klipsch. When the Songtowers arrive, the higher output power rating may apply.

I agree with your assessment: I probably don't need a bigger amp. Need is a relative term. I have a budget that will sustain an Emotiva A300 that I can run off the pre-amps of my Denon. But need is a funny term. Intellectually, I understand I don't need one. Emotionally, my heart tells me it certainly wants one.
Its one of the valuable features of AH: other people facing the same temptations can help me out.

My listening habits are pretty much what I described and measured in the thread. Most of the time, I listen between 75db and 80db. That's my usual level for most jazz recordings, piano, and instrumental pieces.
I will knock it up to 90db for rock music and when I'm feeling pretty impressed with myself. But unless I'm really feeling like a concert experience, I don't jack the volume knob up much higher than that. I think that's because the Klipsch speakers at 5ft of distance just aren't pleasant at volumes higher than that.

What the concert level volume sounds like will be one of the things I'm most looking forward to with the Salk Songtowers. I'm well acquainted with the Klipsch. I'm looking forward to the Salks.
Be careful Buck. Those Songtowers each have a pair of SEAS high value woofers, from the Prestige line. They are about $70 each. They don't pretend to have a high power motor system. For the two of them you have 120 watts to play with. Forget peak power. They are 4 ohm.

Contrary to the wisdom round here speakers are usually blown by too much power and not too little.

What you really need is a better amp in the 150 to 200 watt class. I don't have a very high opinion of receiver amps. Amps do not all sound the same. The problem is in the real world they are not driving resistive loads which they are measured driving. In the real world they have an infinite number of complex reactive loads to deal with.

I think most of us who have been in this a long time, have their favorite amps. Mine is the Quad 909. They seem very stable and rise to the occasion no matter what you throw at them. The 909 is replaced by the QSP now, but I think the 909 is the better bet. They come up on eBay and usually go for $700 to $900 and sometimes more. You won't ever loose money on one, their value stays up. Even the old Quad 405-2 still fetches $400 to $500 on eBay, and the very old Quad 303 frequently do for over $300. Any Quad gear that comes up gets lots of bids.

Quad gear has an enormous following. Quad will still service the old gear and there are lots of trustworthy on line places to get service. This is seldom required as Quad gear is very reliable. Peter Walker regarded a failure in any unit, even an old one as a personal afront.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
"A chance you might need a new amplifier" would be, in my opinion, wording it a bit strongly. I'd rather say only that my own thinking had been "get just enough power but not more" until I saw Cordell's demonstration and changed my mind. (Bob Cordell is an EE who at one time in his career had real experience with audio amplifier design. He wrote a text book on the subject http://www.cordellaudio.com/book/.)

The difference between SongTowers and my old JBL speakers was very large. The difference between SongTowers driven by a 70 wpc AVR and an external 200 wpc amp was much less noticeable. Its far better to spend money on high quality speakers than on bigger amps.
Those silly meters are all for show. High power peaks in music (those single snare drum thwacks) are so quick to start & stop that big analog meters could be too slow to react. LED indicators would be much more likely to show something approaching real power use. Bob Cordell recommends LED clip indicator lights on an amp, but not meters.
It's also worth noting that even in music that has had the dynamic range compressed to as little as 3dB (like a lot of pop music), if you separate it into different frequency bands, such as the sub crossover, there is a lot of dynamics. If you load up a compressed rock song into audacity and low pass it at 80hz you see the dynamic range gets as big as 18dB. Play that song at 80dB average and you'll see LZ peaks as high as 100dB.

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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It's also worth noting that even in music that has had the dynamic range compressed to as little as 3dB (like a lot of pop music), if you separate it into different frequency bands, such as the sub crossover, there is a lot of dynamics. If you load up a compressed rock song into audacity and low pass it at 80hz you see the dynamic range gets as big as 18dB. Play that song at 80dB average and you'll see LZ peaks as high as 100dB.

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk
Whenever I recommend amp power requirements I always allow for 20 dB of dynamic peaks above reference, regardless of HT or music use. In my systems I typically use less than 0.25W average so I have >30 dB to cover any impedance dips and music peaks. If I needed even 2W average for normal listening, I would be getting some pro amps or replace my speakers with higher sensitivity. In reality though, I am sure I can get by with a good 75W integrated amp and wouldn't know the difference >95% of the time. That's why I think the so called experts and professionals are not emphasizing enough that the 4 ohm impedance, while significant, is not near as big an issue as the sensitivity specs of speakers that can range from low 80's to high 90's, or the listening distance that can range from 2m to 5m. Low impedance combined with large phase angles obviously do present a bigger concern, but that's relatively rare especially among the more popular speakers.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Dennis Murphy has always said any amp that delivers at least an honest 50 wpc at 8 ohms can drive SongTowers. The Salk web site now recommends 100 wpc and says the ST is 4 ohms minimum and 6 ohms average, with 88 dB sensitivity. Having owned STs for years, I agree they are an easy load for any amp I've used to drive them, from as low as 35 wpc (an aged Marantz 2230 stereo receiver), to AVRs at 70 wpc and 150 wpc, to as high as 200 wpc (an external B&K EX4420).

I agree with TLS Guy that an amp in the 150-200 watt range would be ideal. That would include a used Quad 909, a new Emotiva A-300 at $400, or an AVA Synergy 300 at $1500. Anything priced higher would not be worth the expense.

Here is the Impedance curve for Salk SongTowers as originally designed with SEAS CA15 woofers. Now ER15 woofers are used, but I don't believe they significantly change the impedance profile.

MTM Impedance.gif
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Dennis Murphy has always said any amp that delivers at least an honest 50 wpc at 8 ohms can drive SongTowers. The Salk web site now recommends 100 wpc and says the ST is 4 ohms minimum and 6 ohms average, with 88 dB sensitivity. Having owned STs for years, I agree they are an easy load for any amp I've used to drive them, from as low as 35 wpc (an aged Marantz 2230 stereo receiver), to AVRs at 70 wpc and 150 wpc, to as high as 200 wpc (an external B&K EX4420).

I agree with TLS Guy that an amp in the 150-200 watt range would be ideal. That would include a used Quad 909, a new Emotiva A-300 at $400, or an AVA Synergy 300 at $1500. Anything priced higher would not be worth the expense.

Here is the Impedance curve for Salk SongTowers as originally designed with SEAS CA15 woofers. Now ER15 woofers are used, but I don't believe they significantly change the impedance profile.

View attachment 20333
Yes, and that raises another issue. That 3/4 inch dome. The impedance curve shows the crossover to be in the 1.5 KHz region, which it would have to be given the bass/mids involved. The Tweeters are the very expensive Hiquphons. I think they use the the OW 4 now and not the OW 2, but the specs are almost identical. Recommended crossover for those tweeters is second order at 2.5 KHz. The impedance curve certainly shows the crossover lower than that. Hiquphon say at their recommended crossover point speaker power handling would be 100 watts. So in the Salk it will be a lot lower than that. The Fs is 850, so the tweeter will barely be 12 db down at resonance. Hiquphon do not quote tweeter Q which they should. If it is a low Q tweeter you can drive it down below Fs.

I just have a feeling that if I owned those speakers I would have replaced a tweeter or two.

I also agree with the reviewer in the Audiohics review that those speakers are ported speakers and not TL, although there is some damping of the first impedance peak. Bass roll off appears to be fourth order, which is ported cabinet behavior and not TL.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Now that I know he has a 75W Denon, I agree he needs a 100-200W amp such as the A300, or upgrade to a Denon 3200, Marantz 6010 or higher model. Crown Audio XLS 1502 may also be an option.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Now that I know he has a 75W Denon, I agree he needs a 100-200W amp such as the A300, or upgrade to a Denon 3200, Marantz 6010 or higher model. Crown Audio XLS 1502 may also be an option.
FWIW here's the bench test of a Denon avr that seems to have the same amp section (see Scott Wilkinson's remark in the comments section, he's the head guy at avsforum.com altho he is more on the video side of things). http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#VuGPrtusyDcSCDlQ.97
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
FWIW here's the bench test of a Denon avr that seems to have the same amp section (see Scott Wilkinson's remark in the comments section, he's the head guy at avsforum.com altho he is more on the video side of things). http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#VuGPrtusyDcSCDlQ.97
If he really sits 5 ft away he should still be fine but one would think most ST owners would sit at least 8 ft away.

I didn't think that Denon had preouts. The 1612 and 1912 definitely don't have preouts for the main zone, but Buck seemed sure the preouts are there.

I also don't feel comfortable with avrs that output less into 4ohms. All Denon 3000 and series and above avrs bench tested by s&v or AH had much higher output into 4ohms than into 8 ohms.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
FWIW here's the bench test of a Denon avr that seems to have the same amp section (see Scott Wilkinson's remark in the comments section, he's the head guy at avsforum.com altho he is more on the video side of things). http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#VuGPrtusyDcSCDlQ.97
lovinthehd
the SAV article was interesting. You are correct, the quoted model and my 591 are essentially the same box. good reference material on how well the AVR 591 will produce power as the % of distortion rises.
thanks.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
lovinthehd
the SAV article was interesting. You are correct, the quoted model and my 591 are essentially the same box. good reference material on how well the AVR 591 will produce power as the % of distortion rises.
thanks.
That's a fairly typical profile as to power vs distortion. Here's one for a 3808 I just picked up (from ParadigmDawg) and one for my 4520.

Here's one for the S801 I think you're interested in?
801 power thd.jpg
 
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